Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
Okay, maybe I was wrong about the "puppet government." Maybe that Rada member is wrong.
It's entirely possible that Kyiv is just friendly with the USA like Cuba was friendly with the USSR.
edited 28th Mar '15 2:00:50 PM by KnitTie
HGW XX/7
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think you could be right 
edited 28th Mar '15 2:11:38 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
The Americans have a huge impact and say on Kyiv's decisions and policy. But that does not a puppet state make, otherwise Obama wouldn't have to force Ukrainian hands in the way he does sometimes.
See, that would be a wonderfully neat explanation if the Maidan wasn't pro-USA and the USA wasn't pro-Maidan long before everything even statred properly. Or if Vicky Nuland didn't make that "Fuck the EU" phone call. Or if people of Ukraine weren't divided on the topic of the Maidan protest, with a slight majority being against it. Or if the protesters didn't recieve any money from the USA and weren't involved in some questionable occurences.
There is no direct evidence that Washington had a hand in bringing Poroshenko to power, but, then again, there's also no direct evidence of Russian troops being in Ukraine. And yet people seem to be perfectly fine with believing that they are there.
Emuran, you are right, I was wrong in using the term "puppet government." It's not a puppet government. Certainly a close ally of Washington, maybe even a close ally of Washington who was aided in his ascension to power, but not a puppet government.
You are also the most reasonable pro-Ukrainian internet warrior I've ever met. We should go out for pampushki sometime.
edited 28th Mar '15 3:29:55 PM by KnitTie
Question to tropers on both sides (or no sides): is Nuland still running the operation or has she been transferred?
edited 28th Mar '15 3:25:32 PM by Quag15
A procrastination in of itself
You've never listened to the Scottish troopers talk about London and the South-East.
The US politics thread is pretty much nothing but people bitching about how their government is incompetent, corrupt, and in the pocket of big money while trying to squish democracy via voter suppression.
You're acting like Castro wasn't pro-USSR before everything kicked of with Cuba, people with similar idealogical beliefs tend to align, that's kidna how things work.
Can I get a source on the protesters receiving money from the US government?
I'm pretty sure there is, in fact I'm pretty sure we've had in in this thread.
There are people on this forum I'd call "internet warriors", Emuran is not one of them and you shouldn't be either, I believe that he is interested in sharing and discussing events, not getting into a keyboard fight and 'winning'.
Hey look at that, we just changed someone's opinion in a politics argument on the internet, does this mean we can all go home now? (What do you mean I'm already at home? You know what I mean).
edited 28th Mar '15 7:09:21 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Silasw, the "internet warrior" was supposed to be a joke. I call all people who are regulars in political threads that. Sorry if it came out wrong.
As for my opinion, well, you certainly didn't change it. Emuran did, by making thoughtful comments.
Collector Of Fine Oddities
MinDat's database of Ukraine mineral localities. Their system is a bit of a hassle to navigate through, but if one overlays a map of the current political situation one may get an idea of the current dispersion of potential mineral wealth held by both sides at the moment.
Unfortunately, neither of the sides is interested in resource extraction right now. Only begging for foreign aid and killing each other.
edited 29th Mar '15 10:09:58 AM by KnitTie
The Harbinger of Chaos.
I hope someone wasn't trying to say that the US thread was full of apologists.
I might have a heart attack from laughing too much.
whoever implied that should do stand up.
The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Of course not, that would be silly.
edited 1st Apr '15 12:15:43 PM by Lyttenburgh
Watching the last dispatch on VICE (“Should the West arm the Ukraine?”) made me revisit lostarmour(.)info site. It’s one of the most complete databases on vehicles lost in the course of the conflict in the Eastern Ukraine.
It gives you a type of the vehicle, its “allegiance”, location where and the date when it met its fate, some photos and the link to sources. So it can give very, very conservative estimate of the scale of, you know, “lost armour” during that conflict.
So, just to give you a picture about the scale of losses suffered by the Ukrainian forces during a full year of that conflict, we will find out that they’d already lost:
1) 597 units of hardware destroyed and 393 captured by the Armed Forces of Novorossiya.
2) 32 units of field artillery destroyed and 35 captured.
3) 28 units of rocket artillery destroyed and 2 captured.
4) 8 helicopters and 11 planes destroyed.
5) 1 patrol cutter destroyed.
As I said earlier – this is a very conservative estimate. A lot of vehicles “allegiances” and even places where they’ve met their “fate” are still unconfirmed.
This site don’t touch the subject of real losses of the Ukrainian Army and Natz Guard. But you can see with your own eyes photos of destroyed Ukrainian BT Rs, BM Ps and tanks and ask yourself – what were the chances of people surviving that?
edited 31st Mar '15 6:51:47 PM by Lyttenburgh
I can answer that - the official number of killed soldiers was 1750 one week ago. As somebody who has contacted with the army and the battalions recently, I say - that's VERY on the small side of estimates (that number discounts the unidentified KIA and MIA, as well). Same for the rebel-given estimates for their losses.
The International "Fools Day" was celebrated by some people in rather... weird fashion:
Angry Ukrainian woman protested in the center of Moscow with a piece of meat on her head
It should be noted that users of social networks did not immediately realize what such creative person wanted to demonstrate. And they began to ask such questions like: whether the cost for beef for steep was it of good quality and what kind of dish you can make out of it?
However, later everything was cleared up. Rather, the girl herself did this on her page on Facebook. It turns out that this gesture was really a protest against the war in the Donbass. Moreover, it even had a name - "Enough."
And with her actions, albeit quite clumsy, this Ukrainian artist tried to encourage people to draw people's attention to what is happening in the east of Ukraine and to bring an end to it all.
Source: //nahnews.com_ua/195077-ukrainskaya-xudozhnica-s-kuskom-myasa-na-golove-poprosila-prekratit-vojnu/
And even a video www.youtube_com/watch?v=UW_lMjtn6uY of this "performance"
edited 1st Apr '15 5:50:16 PM by Lyttenburgh
Beware the Crazy Man.
& I wonder just how many Soviet-era armored vehicles are going to go extinct in this conflict if thats supposed to be the conservative estimate....
I can tell you about the rebels' casualties.
According to my insider friends, the overall losses of the AFN are comparable with those of the AFU everywhere except in the airport and around Debaltsevo, where Kyiv has been routed pretty badly, and these two battles manage to bring the overall casualty ratio to about 3:1 in the rebels' favor. The actual numbers I honestly don't know, but much more people are wounded than killed.
edited 2nd Apr '15 5:25:10 AM by KnitTie
The odds of vehicle models becoming extinct down there is unlikely, given the numbers usually associated with Soviet production runs.
Unless we're talking very uncommon variants that were only made in small numbers of course.
When in deadly danger, When beset by doubt, Run in little circles, Wave your arms and shout.
Agree about Debaltseve, but the rebels lost far more troops in the airport than the AFU.
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
This post was thumped by the Merciless Hammer of Doom
That's absolutely not true, I'm afraid, but arguing about that would be useless right now.
New episode of Vice News is out. Notice how the comments are filled with gleeful derision.
Youtube comments in general make me hate humanity more often than not.
edited 2nd Apr '15 10:23:12 AM by KnitTie
HGW XX/7
Download Comment Blocker and ignore them.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
It just sometimes feels like Youtube sucks all the civility out of people. Or brains, for that matter.
1) Wow. So this is true, after all - "УКРОП/UKROP" shoulder pads are really embraced with pride by the Ukrainian forces! What's next? Showing pictures of the dile thrown into boiling kettle will be banned as separatists propaganda?
2) I always "like" the creative way how VIC Eers are translating stuff. Ommiting something here, changing the word there. "We still ship the food over because our people are still here". But what that truck driver said "because we WANT that our NORMAL people remained there". I.e. - some people, according to him, are not "normal", and, probably, doesn't deserve to eat.
Another example, their subs translated this one woman's expression as "It's every man for himself", while actually, she said "Everyone is surviving to the best of their abilities".
3) All this "OMG! This looks like an actual border! As if we are entering a different country!!!" stuff (and obligatory "pro-Russian rebels", "self-proclaimed Republics", and the most recent - "uncontrolled territories") is getting rather tiresome. A clear example of the Insistent Terminology, primary on behalf of the Oh-So-Independent Free Western Press (tm)
Simon Ostrowskiy in particular is rather notorious for that. He can calmly say on camera even in the DPR territory the usual drivel about "Self-Proclaimed" and "Separatists Controlled", but while talking with people here he drops all this "self-proclaimed" and "separatists" act.
edited 2nd Apr '15 11:46:32 AM by Lyttenburgh
"Close ties"+"supportive rhetoric"=="puppet government"?
Also, so where's proof about America being behind Maydan? Or, to dig up old claims, evidence about Blackwater and other mercenary companies?
There was a spectacular arrest a couple of days ago, when a high-ranking cabinet member was arrested dramatically during the session for corruption, but was then released after the prosecutor rescinded the case against him without giving a reason. Epic fail.
And Kolomoyskyy is trolling everyone through his TV channel now. He's not letting go that easily.
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?