Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
A procrastination in of itself
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's because for the international community putting their embassies in what is regarded as occupied territory (or close enough that it would be confusing) is something they don't want to do as they don't want to be seen to in any way give Israel's control over said territory legitimacy/approval.
That's also the reasoning behind people not referring to the Israel government as "Jerusalem" (also people call it Tel Aviv because that what they're used to). There's a reason I stick with "Israeli government" and don't use any cities.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
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Referring to the Israeli gov't as 'Tel Aviv' is weird because quite a lot of it sits in Jerusalem.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
As I explained here before, governmental decisions are being made physically in Jerusalem, therefore referring to them as being made in tel-aviv is just inaccurate, regardless of what should have been.
It kind of reminds me of how maps in Arab countries don't mention Israel which make them inaccurate. I bet their military maps do mention Israel in great detail
edited 30th Mar '15 7:31:54 AM by nnokwoodeye1
Diplomacy is not about what is functionally true. It's about perception. The world does not percieve Jerusalem as the capital, because it doesn't recognize all of Jerusalem as Israeli.
I guess, to be absolutely politically correct, one could say West Jerusalem, but it's about as insulting to an Israeli nationalist.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Dude, watch your tone.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
A procrastination in of itself
Out of curiosity, which half of Jerusalem does it sit in? Or is it spread across the city?
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
(Avatar by Coffee)
It's mostly in the Western half, but the police HQ and a unit of the Ministry of Justice are located in Sheikh Jarakh.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
The Israeli government offices? West Jerusalem. East Jerusalem is where all the illegal settlements are, and I'm not sure whether any government buildings have moved over there with them.
Ah, that clarifies things.
edited 30th Mar '15 7:46:49 AM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
Thus speaks yoneld:
x9 I wouldn't say West Jerusalem is any more occupied than Nazareth, Akko, Ashdod, and Beersheba are. All of those areas weren't initially allotted to the Jewish state in the 1947 partition plan, but became part of Israel in the armistice agreements of 1949.
It's true that part of diplomacy is about perception, that's why so many nations put their embassies in Tel-aviv, they don't want to be perceived as recognizing Israel claim to the city. But perception can't get in the way of reality. I mean, no politician would ever say something like "the Knesset is in tel-aviv", unless they want to be DanQuayled
"It all comes back to this guy. Netanyahu is the next Berlusconi, clearly, outrageous figure with low credibility and a tendency for pissing everyone off (domestic and abroad), yet keeps getting re-elected."
I dont think so, Berlusconi was saw as the caligula or some fool who indulge themselves, Netanyahu instead is "Fuck you all, I do what I want!" funny think is that jewsih media see Obama in this way
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
A procrastination in of itself
X3 For West Jerusalem I'd agree, but I think the worry is that the distinction wouldn't be made between West and East if embassies were moved to within Jerusalem.
edited 30th Mar '15 8:54:35 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
(Avatar by Coffee)
Depends on the paper and writer's leanings. Again: Israel (and Israeli/Jewish media) is not a single, monolithic entity any more than the USA is.
But when talking about "sit of government", we are not talking about the reality. We are just using a city as a shorthand for the government itself. It is an abstraction. Because of that, the perception is important and those who doesn't recognize Israel claim to Jerusalem will use "Tel Aviv" when talking about the government.
edited 30th Mar '15 8:53:02 AM by Heatth
A procrastination in of itself
Well that's an unconformable and rather questionable phrase.
there's a reason I just use "Israeli government"
A take from this one:
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/obama-declares-war-on-israel/2015/03/30/
And many other with similar views, but you are right,My bad, you could said pro-Netanyahu, that maybe be better
edited 30th Mar '15 8:57:07 AM by unknowing
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
(Avatar by Coffee)
That's an article written by an Arab working for an American conservative think tank. It's not very representative of Israeli media if you ask me.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
So they should use "the Knesset" if they feel like but they shouldn't use an inaccurate term, that's just ignoring reality. It like if some hardcore Israeli settlers would start to refer to Jordan as "eastern Israel".
edited 30th Mar '15 9:00:03 AM by nnokwoodeye1
Welp.
I'll just hope that X number of sides in this sad mess is keeping the relevant Wikipedia articles balanced. More or less.
edited 30th Mar '15 9:02:27 AM by probablyinsane
Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
(Avatar by Coffee)
The Wikipedia articles on the subject... well... read their talk pages if you want to see some interesting Flame Wars.
That said, here's an Israeli journalist that thinks Obama's a loon.
I 50% admire Wikipedia editors and 50% pity them. (That said. I feel similar for TV Tropes editors.)
A procrastination in of itself
It is, as it avoids conflating an entire race/culture/religion of people spread around the world with a single politician in one country who isn't even supported by the entire electorate.
In fairness the entire practise of referring to a national government by the name of its capital city is one of ignoring reality.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
A nice butterfly
Dang. Venezuela. Israel.
What's up with everyone saying Obama is going to war with them? Next thing we know, Uwe Boll will challenge him to a boxing match or something.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Embassy Row is in Tel Aviv too.