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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#5551: Dec 3rd 2015 at 2:39:12 PM

Civilians who weren't trained joined in the fight, in part because the train staff locked them in with the guy (as is the process in such cases).

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#5552: Dec 3rd 2015 at 8:49:03 PM

Response to last page:

Other shootings like Virginia Tech, Columbine, Aurora, Umpqua and Sandy were all horrible. But these cases tend to involve individuals that have serious social and mental issues and it was basically all personal. In contrast, this shooter was privileged with a United States citizenship, a college degree, and employment at the county services, which basically meant that the state and local government found him to be trustworthy. The motive here is different; it's a case of that person becoming radicalized under the influence of a terrorist organization.

Speaking of which... if Obama decides to push for stronger gun regulations in light of this event, I would have to disagree with him. Think about it. How would have stronger gun regulations helped prevent this person from getting weaponry, given all the good standings and privileges I just addressed (aside from, obviously, the terrorism links)? This really does need to be seen as a terrorism-related incident; measures taken should look at antiterrorism and fighting ISIS in a broad sense instead of being narrowed to "guns" and stuff.

edited 3rd Dec '15 8:51:50 PM by Trivialis

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#5553: Dec 3rd 2015 at 9:08:49 PM

[up]To prevent that it would need either more surveillance or more preemptive profiling.

None of those measures are good.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#5554: Dec 3rd 2015 at 9:15:30 PM

[up][up]Easy: With stronger gun regulations, they might have noticed the person in question earlier when he tried to get his hands on weapons. Shortly before the attack in Paris, the police in Bavaria caught a weapon smuggler who was on the way to Paris. They did inform the French secret service about it. But either they weren't taken seriously, or they didn't know where to look. Or both.

Plus, there have been a number of incidence in the last years in the US which would have been less dire if the attacker hadn't gotten his hand on a gun. That's something I noticed: People going Amok has become kind of a trend, but the death toll in Europe is often lower than in the US because the attacker in question has either only limited access to guns or, like recently, has to use a different, less lethal kind of weapon.

edited 3rd Dec '15 9:15:41 PM by Swanpride

editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#5555: Dec 3rd 2015 at 9:29:24 PM

Australian butcher who allegedly admired Paris terror attacks granted bail after cache of weapons found

The Supreme Court heard Matthew James Hutchison was watching the coverage of the deadly attacks in Paris at work last month when he said "this is the best news I have heard all day, all countries should learn to shut their doors".

Justice Peter Flanagan said the butcher told his workmates "I want to book a flight to Europe and walk through all countries with a machete and kill people".

He allegedly said the Paris attacks were "inevitable".

The court heard he also said "you know what, I really hate police" and "when I have some Sudanese people come and try and kill me, I will defend myself".

...

A medical assessment found he did not have any underlying psychotic illness.

The hell? I guess he thought his work colleagues wouldn't be bothered by the idea that he wants to kill Europeans and probably Africans too for some unimaginable reason?

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#5556: Dec 3rd 2015 at 9:30:06 PM

[up][up]What's generally implied by "gun control" is stronger background checks for firearm purchases and license requirements. For those to work, you need a criteria for deciding who can be trusted with guns. The problem with this shooting is that there was no good basis to stop this person from getting armaments, given the clean criminal history and mental conditions. A moderate enhancement in gun regulations and their enforcement might have helped stop Virginia Tech, but not this.

[down]That doesn't look like it's directed at me...

edited 4th Dec '15 9:05:41 PM by Trivialis

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#5557: Dec 3rd 2015 at 9:30:52 PM

[up]You're equating smuggling with one of thousands of trades the US has each year, even then there are many people with clean backgrounds with no previous history of violence that manage to go through the bureaucracy. Usually what happens at best is delaying the incidents but anyone with minimum foresight could go around it.

Inter arma enim silent leges
MayuZane I made my own avatar from SPACE Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
I made my own avatar
#5558: Dec 3rd 2015 at 11:43:55 PM

World's largest Muslim organization begins anti-extremism campaign: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/indonesian-muslims-counter-isis_565c737ae4b072e9d1c26bda

A 50-million strong Sunni movement in Indonesia just launched a global anti-extremism campaign.

Each time the Islamic State, al Qaeda or another terrorist group commits violence in the name of Islam, a familiar refrain arises: What's the Muslim world doing about it?

In fact, anti-extremism efforts abound in the global Muslim community: Muslim leaders and scholars have denounced the Islamic State group, the U.K.'s Muslim Youth League has declared "ideological holy war" against extremism, and You Tube has even tried to recruit American Muslims to counter extremist content.

And in Indonesia, home of the world's largest Muslim population, a massive anti-extremism movement is underway.

Nahdlatul Ulama, or NU, is the largest independent Islamic organization in the world, with 50 million members. Part Sunni religious body, part political party and part charity, it was founded nearly 90 years ago, in 1926, as a response to another Sunni movement, Wahabbism.

Wahhabism is the ultra-conservative reform movement based in Saudi Arabia that advocates for puritanical laws from the time of Islam's origins. It rejects the modern notion of "religion as a purely private activity" and the separation of church and state. The Islamic State is highly committed to Wahhabi principles, using its religious textbooks and embracing its hardline tradition of killing unbelievers.

NU's stated goal is to "to spread messages about a tolerant Islam in their respective countries to curb radicalism, extremism and terrorism," which, it claims, "often spring from a misinterpretation of Islamic teachings." It launched its global anti-extremism initiative in 2014.

Its work was recently magnified by the Paris terror attacks, which Indonesia's Vice President, Jusuf Kalla, who serves on the NU Advisory Board, condemned at a three-day conference last week in Malang, Indonesia. The conference was held by the International Conference of Islamic Scholars, another Indonesian anti-radicalism project that its Foreign Ministry started in 2002, in wake of the Sept. 11 attacks. Kalla said, "There is nothing religious about such attacks because Islam never justifies them."

NU is setting its sights globally. In December 2014, it created an American nonprofit called Bayt ar-Rahmah in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, to serve as headquarters for its international activities. It is planning "an international conference and cultural event in Washington, D. C." in Spring 2016, NU General Secretary Yahya Cholil Staquf told the Huffington Post.

It is also building a "prevention center" in Indonesia to train Arabic-speaking students to combat jihadist rhetoric, alongside NU theologians. And it's has created a joint program with the University of Vienna in Austria called VORTEX, the Vienna Observatory for Applied Research on Radicalism and Extremism. The project, which is funded by the Ministry of Internal Security, works to "produce counter-narratives against radical ideas and propagate them globally," said Staquf. He said NU is also working on future projects with the Swedish and British governments.

There are domestic concerns about NU's global ambitions, since there's still a need to counter extremism within Indonesia itself. The country has faced a number of deadly terrorist attacks in recent years, including on its beach resorts and luxury hotels. But NU says its campaign applies "equally to local radicals," according to the New York Times. And NU suggests that the specific differences of Indonesian Islam, which it believes is more moderate and tolerant than that of the Middle East, should be both encouraged at home and propagated abroad. "When we learn that the threat of radicalism is global, we need to consolidate globally to challenge it," Staquf told Huff Post.

Indonesia is home to one of the most liberal Muslim populations in the world. On Nov. 14, the Indonesian Ulema Council, the country's top Muslim clerical body, which includes NU, announced a plan to mobilize 50,000 preachers to spread moderate, or "Wasathiyah," Islam within Indonesia.

As suggested in a 2012 article in the Indonesian policy journal Strategic Review, pluralism may be the "big idea" that Indonesian Islam can bring to the world stage. Although Indonesian Muslims are a numerical majority, they live alongside Hindus and Buddhists who predated them on the island, and they share and mix spiritual traditions. Indonesia's national motto is bhinneka tunggal ika, or "unity in diversity,” and that ethos is central to the country's Muslim traditions. It's the backdrop for the school of Islam Nusantara, or “Islam of the Archipelago,” a 500-year-old strain of Sunnism that emphasizes Hindu-Buddhist tenets like nonviolence and religious tolerance.

In a 90-minute film released by NU called "The Divine Grace of Islam Nusantara," Indonesian Islamic scholars systematically criticize and denounce the Islamic State’s interpretations of the Quran and Hadith.

The film underscores the ambition and scope of NU's anti-extremism platform. “At the upstream level, it is the job of clerics to combat embryos of terrorism, while on the downstream side, it is the job of law enforcement institutions to do so,” said Muzadi, who also serves as secretary-general of ICIS.

CORRECTION: An earlier version of this story incorrectly identified Jusuf Kalla as NU's VP. He is the Vice President of Indonesia and a member of NU's advisory board.

Former hostage of Daesh, Nicholas Henin, believes intensifying airstrikes on Syria is a mistake: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/nicolas-henin-video-isis-syria-strikes?CMP=twt_gu

A French journalist held hostage by Islamic State for 10 months, has made an impassioned plea against bombing Syria, saying it was a trap that would only benefit Isis.

Nicolas Hénin, previously held hostage by Mohammed Emwazi, implored the international community to seek a political solution. Engaging with Syrians, not bombing them, was the surest way to bring about the collapse of Isis, he said. I was held hostage by Isis. They fear our unity more than our airstrikes.

In a five-minute video said to have been recorded in the past few days in Paris and posted on You Tube by the Syria Campaign, Hénin said: “Strikes on Isis are a trap. The winner of this war will not be the parties that have the newest, most expensive, most sophisticated weaponry, but the party that manages to have the people on its side.”

In his message, apparently timed to coincide with Wednesday’s UK parliament debate on joining Syria airstrikes, he said: “At the moment, with the bombings, we are more likely pushing the people into the hands of Isis. What we have to do, and this is really key, we have to engage the local people.

“As soon as the people have hope in the political solution, then Islamic State will just collapse. It will have no ground any more. It will collapse.”

Hénin was released along with other French hostages in April 2014. He had been held captive alongside James Foley, Steven Sotloff, David Haines and Alan Henning, who were all murdered by Emwazi.

“Mohammed Emwazi was one of my captors. He is the one who murdered my friends,” said Hénin. “I can’t prevent myself from thinking for the six murders that he committed, face to camera, murders of westerners, how many Syrians did he kill, and who cares for them?” Mohammed Emwazi killed my friend, but his own death won't affect the war.

He said the jihadis lived in a parallel world and a “different matrix”. They believed in a “mad prophecy” that there would be a global confrontation between a coalition of “80 armies against an army of Muslims coming from all over the world” and were “a bit out of their mind”.

Hénin said: “Why are we making so many mistakes? Why are people so much misunderstanding the region? We are just fuelling our enemies, and fuelling the misery, the disaster for the local people.”

He said the radicalisation was the result of passivity by the international community, who failed to assist Syrian democrats “as they were yelling for their freedom, and the Syrians were living in total despair”.

He said: “For every single Syrian killed since the beginning of this conflict by Islamic State, between seven and 10 have been killed by the Syrian regime. We have to understand that these two parallel disasters for the Syrian people, they depend one on the other, and one cannot fight one without fighting the other.”

Hénin said the summer refugee crisis had been a propaganda blow to Isis. Images of refugees fleeing the Muslim “dreamland” and being welcomed in the lands of “unbelievers” had given a lie to their message of western hatred towards Muslims, he said. “And that is why they probably tried to manipulate the public during the Paris attack, to make us close our borders, and maybe, even more importantly, to close our minds.”

There was an easy way to make Islamic State “lose ground at high speed” he said. “It would be for the international community to take the decision that all the Syrian regions that are held by the opposition are no-fly zones; no-fly zones for everybody. Not the coalition, not the Russians, not the regime. Nobody. So, actually to provide security to the people would be devastating for Isis and this is what the international community should focus on,” he said.

I know we've already established that airstrikes alone isn't gonna solve anything, but I reckoned this man's statement is worth noting on this thread as well.

Anybody want space lobsters?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#5559: Dec 4th 2015 at 1:06:05 AM

I agree with the guy. We need to isolated the areas in which Isis is while securing those areas where it isn't, stop the money flow and battle their poisonous rhetoric with words instead of swords.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#5560: Dec 4th 2015 at 1:13:45 AM

You need both words and swords. One without the other, in this scenario, is meaningless. Just using the sword simply drives the guilty underground. Need a long term plan after the violence after all. Using words without enforcement just sounds like lecturing. Need to back up what you say after all.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#5561: Dec 4th 2015 at 2:12:55 AM

[up]The swords should be used for defence, though.

FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#5562: Dec 4th 2015 at 2:47:44 AM

[up][up][up][up]he's right, ISIS is not like the Taliban or Al Queida, they're an apocalypse cult, it's in all their propaganda, they want a battle in Dabiq against the west that they think will bring on the end of the world, seriously

http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-us-to-invade-7-facts-revealed-by-their-magazine/

edited 4th Dec '15 2:48:07 AM by FieldMarshalFry

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#5563: Dec 4th 2015 at 2:58:03 AM

We shouldn't care if we give ISIS what it wants if we get what we want. Our victory conditions should be getting what we want, not denying the enemy what they want.

Oh and the Germans are in. Looks like Europe is are war boys.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#5564: Dec 4th 2015 at 3:02:28 AM

we are clearly not trying to destroy ISIS though, this is all politics, trying to look good to the electorate, if we were, we would side with the Russian's and Assad since they are the major powers in the region and, as despicable as he is, the Assad government is the legitimate one

edited 4th Dec '15 3:02:48 AM by FieldMarshalFry

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#5565: Dec 4th 2015 at 3:20:38 AM

[up]The Assad government engineered the situation in order to create a threat which would force the other countries to accept it. I refuse to allow it to get away with it. And there is nothing legitimate about it.

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#5566: Dec 4th 2015 at 3:21:18 AM

[up][up]

Assad has killed more Syrians than Da'esh by a factor of seven. His bloody crackdown against the protests in 2011 and mass arrests of liberal opposition leaders are a huge factor in why the extremist opposition is so strong.

edited 4th Dec '15 3:21:55 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#5567: Dec 4th 2015 at 3:34:08 AM

he is still the legitimate government, unfortunately, we have no right to remove him, this isn't the days of the Empire when we could move into an area and remove the local leader and start ruling it ourselves

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#5568: Dec 4th 2015 at 3:36:46 AM

That depends entirely on how you define legitimacy. And no siding with Assad won't remove ISIS, it in fact would sustain ISIS, seeing as Assad helped create ISIS, including freeing many ISIS members from jail with the express purpose of them going and setting up ISIS.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#5569: Dec 4th 2015 at 3:48:21 AM

Assad is the strongest force in the region opposed to ISIS, he just has a lot more enemies as well since he is opposed to, well, everyone who isn't Assad, that's why he has Russia helping him bomb everyone else, so he can focus on the ground fight

advancing the front into TV Tropes
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#5570: Dec 4th 2015 at 3:59:40 AM

He's not opposed to ISIS, he's opposed to ISIS being this strong but he helped create ISIS very deliberately. Without ISIS Assad would be seen as the worst person around, he doesn't want that, thus he doesn't want ISIS gone.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#5571: Dec 4th 2015 at 4:41:10 AM

@Fry

No, the local people decided to remove Assad, after he started killing them for protesting against him. 'Legitimate' or not, the Syrian Civil War is entirely his fault, and its difficult to see how he can remain in government after everything that's happened.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
DeMarquis Since: Feb, 2010
#5572: Dec 4th 2015 at 4:47:04 AM

Legitimacy, in a democratic culture like ours, is based on the support of the general public. Assad has lost that, therefore he has also lost his legitimacy.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#5573: Dec 4th 2015 at 5:00:58 AM

This is also not the days of feudalism, where rulers reigned by some divine right that could never be revoked.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#5574: Dec 4th 2015 at 6:54:42 AM

World's largest Muslim organization begins anti-extremism campaign:

[awesome]. Why did they not start before is a question that rises but better late than never.

Also I am pretty sure my opinion on aistrikes and the whole war thing is already known, so I would just repeat myself.

Instead I wanna mention that the San Bernardino shooter's contacts with the people on terrorist watchlist were deemed "not substantial". More and more, it seems like a personal thing than a terrorist thing.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#5575: Dec 4th 2015 at 8:50:24 AM

More details.

edited 4th Dec '15 8:51:27 AM by speedyboris


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