Romeiki Case

(NOTE: Apparently there was a thread on this, but it was closed because the OP was too biased and didn't lay out the facts well enough. So I thought I'd try to lay things out nicely and neutrally.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/us-christians-rally-around-home-schooling-romeiki-family-facing-deportation_n_3135691.html

Basically, a German homeschooling family came to America seeking political asylum on the grounds that they faced what amounted to "religious persecution" in their home country. A Judge agreed and the family was granted asylum.

However the Justice Department ruled that the family's fears of Germany's anti-homeschooling laws were not valid grounds to seek asylum.

The ruling is currently being appealed.

Needless to say, this has ignited quite a bit of controversy. People on both sides of the political fence slinging mud at each other. Either at Germany and the department of justice, accusing them of being authoritarian assholes infringing on the rights of parents to decide their children's futures, or towards the various groups supporting homeschooling in general, for trying to give undue legal privileges to an inept and highly questionable alternative to mainstream education.

I personally believe that as it becomes more widespread, homeschooling is likely to become another gun-control-esque issue.

edited 10th May '13 9:55:11 AM by Albor

so, you don't like the laws of your home state? Persecution!

Not allowed to run around with a gun to defend yourself? Persecution!

Not allowed to drink and drive? Persecution!

I'm wondering how this whole case would appear to people who are really persecuted for their political views.

Hell, I would like to see the political ruckus if a gay couple sought political asylum because the US doesn't allow them to marry?

edited 10th May '13 11:07:58 AM by 3of4

I don't think being disallowed to homeschool your children is sufficient reason to seek asylum. Asylum is for things like fearing death if you go back to the country you're leaving. If this couple thinks the laws regarding such things is unfair, they can lobby for their ideology. But they are NOT in a dire enough situation to qualify for asylum.

Not the same.

The German ban on homeschooling is by far more reprehensible than any restrictions against gay marriage.

edited 10th May '13 11:10:04 AM by Albor

Really? In an abstract level they are not that different.

Gay couple complains they can't marry, the state denies them the right do so, so they are persecuted. The hypothetical state they seek refuge has that right.

Romeike's complain that they don't "have the right to decide what their children learn", the state denies them that, so they are persecuted.

Please, please, please don't come now with the "home schooling ban is a Nazi law" bullshit.

edited 10th May '13 11:12:46 AM by 3of4

And Germany's ban on homeschooling isn't the same as fear of certain death should they go back.

This family is actually in a country where they could safely lobby for their ideals and not die as a result of it. Their reasons for asylum are utter bullshit.

edited 10th May '13 11:12:51 AM by AceofSpades

No offense, but unless you can prove that german publuic schools are completely incompetent and incapable of providing a decent education for a child, then I hardly think being disallowed to homneschool your kid quite ranks up there with beng told you're going to hell for loving someone with the same dangly bits, and being denied the rights to even visit them in a hospital, share finances, or otherwise get the same rights any straight couple gets.

edited 10th May '13 11:13:53 AM by Midgetsnowman

Nobody prevents them from trying to get a greencard or so. But asylum because of persecution? That's just bullshit to cheat their way in. And depriving people who actually need that system of time, money and what else.

Many opponents of Gay Marriage (rightly) see marriage as their thing. A religious institution that should be governed according to their religion.

They feel that homosexual activists are infringing upon their religion by trying to change the definition of marriage. It's homosexuals who are imposing upon the religious, not the other way around. They're trying to twist the definition of a primarily religious institution to gain a few non-essential legal benefits.

The German Government, as well as people who wish to implement similar laws in the US or UK are actively trying to impose upon families who simply want to withdraw from the mainstream education system. The German Government is very much the aggressor here, no question about it.

I see this often, whenever conservatives point out some genuine, inexcusable injustice, left wingers try to dismiss their concerns as hyperbolic when it is often anything but.

edited 10th May '13 11:27:03 AM by Albor

The problem isn't necessarily homeschooling.

Homeschooling is not a problem if you can prove that your child is learning as well or better at home than they would if they went through the public school system. Maybe through, say, a standardized test you could submit to the government.

The problem here is that these people are solely teaching their children religious material because they dislike the public education system. But there's a reason why stuff like this is being taught, it's damn near the most important skill set you can pass on to a child, whether or not they actually end up going through an education leaning towards hard science or soft science.

This isn't some "grave injustice," it's preventing these people from raising their children in an environment that could just as well be indistinguishable from brainwashing.

Again, if this German family, and other German families, want to homeschool their kids then they can organized and lobby for their position. In the meantime, people trying to get asylum because they fear death don't need this sort of bullshit clogging up the waiting line. This family doesn't have a serious enough reason to be granted asylum. They want to come and live as legal residents? Fine, there's nothing stopping them. They can get their Visas with their middle class background and European heritage quite easily.

But leave the bullshit about religious persecution at the door.

Can you be specific? What is it exactly this family is or is not teaching their children that you feel makes them unfit to homeschool?

edited 10th May '13 11:35:00 AM by Albor

@Albor

Many opponents of Gay Marriage (rightly) see marriage as their thing. A religious institution that should be governed according to their religion.

And yet no one seems to oppose Atheists getting married. The bottom line is that marriage has never been a religious institution, and even where it one, it has never been confined to one set of religious beliefs.

They're trying to twist the definition of a primarily religious institution to gain a few non-essential legal benefits

Yes because the right to keep your family together should your partner die, or just be able to visit them on their death bed, is most certianlly non essential.

Comparing the prosecution faced by homosexual in the US to a family that simply wants to avoid having their children be introduce to higher concepts of learning is ridiculous.

The bottom line is, for all it's man flaws, public education serves a common good. If you want to take your child out of that, then you should be required to demonstrate that the education you are providing at home is just as good as the one the state would.

"They can get their Visas with their middle class background and European heritage quite easily."

Are you suggesting there is some sort of "white privilege" going on here?

edited 10th May '13 11:39:13 AM by Albor

Did you seriously just pull the redefinition of marriage card? Why don't you go protest the downfall of the dowry system, or the fact that concubines aren't a thing anymore. Those were changes to the definition of marriage.

Gay marriage doesn't infringe on the rights of homophobes, religious or otherwise, anymore than divorcees remarrying infringes on the rights of Catholics.

It isn't what they are or aren't teaching their kids, it's the fact that there's no way to check up on what exactly they are teaching them.

If they're teaching them with the same sense of versatility and fairness that's associated with a decent public school system? Then sure, not a problem. The thing is, it doesn't sound like they're doing that. If this is actually a problem, then they should be forced to send their children through public school, because otherwise they'll be educationally stunted when they finally have to interact with the school system.

edited 10th May '13 11:39:12 AM by math792d

Let's not forget that this is a GERMAN family coming to AMERICA to try and subvert GERMAN law. It seems like this should add a serious dimension of discussion to this.

Such as: is it right to try and run away to another country simply because there's a law you don't like? A law that doesn't result in your death and constant persecution? (So far as I can tell, the government doesn't like the idea of homeschooling. It's not the religion they're objecting to.)

@14- I need someone to find the statistics/etc. on this, but what people are referring to is that in terms of the demographics of people able to get a VISA, the U.S. immigration system is very favorable toward educated professionals from Europe.

Eh, if this was actual persecution, it wouldn't be right to criticize people for fleeing their country. Incidentally, don't some European countries ban Scientology? I wonder if any Scientologists have had any luck seeking asylum.

edited 10th May '13 11:42:06 AM by Hodor

Asylum is for people that face actual prosecution and oppression. If you simply don't like the nation you are living in because of one law or one policy, then you are still free to leave, but persuse the normal channel like everyone else rather then wasting the time of the courts.

Unless someone can demonstrate how not allowing home schooling is immediately and presently detrimental to the health or living standard of this family, there is no grounds for asylum.

@Albor: There's white privilege in the sense that our own politicians are making it increasingly harder for those who aren't middle class or rich Caucasian to get into the country. That's more a reflection on us than on them in this case.

edited 10th May '13 11:44:05 AM by AceofSpades

"I don't know for sure, so I'll assume I'm right." is not a valid argument.

The thing is; most studies that have delved into the issue have not come out with anything particularity bad to say about homeschooling. If you go over to Wikipedia you'll see paragraph for "supportive" research on homeschooling is much larger than "criticism".

The main argument I hear in favor of banning or otherwise heavily regulating homeschooling come from people who claim most homeschoolers are highly religious (which isn't really true, but sill wouldn't matter even if it was) which, in their view, makes the concept homeschooling as a whole highly suspect.

The problem with this argument is, even if most homeschoolers were religious, is that it essentially amounts to:

"Those people are teaching their children values and views that I personally believe are wrong, therefore they must not be allowed to teach their children."

edited 10th May '13 12:04:49 PM by Albor

Albor, you clearly aren't interested in having a serious debate on this topic, despite the "constructive" OP. All you want to do is complain. That's not what this forum is for.