The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

That element is also at play as well.

Like how the reason why Dragons show up in so many mythologies is really just because we call any large scaley mythological creature a "dragon", even if it's actually very different from the dragons we know.

Edited by Falrinn on Mar 25th 2024 at 1:55:11 AM

There are so many different monsters we call "dragons" that we've got the Our Dragons Are Different trope.

This could probably be partially, if not largely, be chalked up to encounters between archaic humans and possibly even the earliest of modern humans with other large primates, particularly any members of the great apes both living and extinct.

Apart from the fact they’re all our closest genetic relatives, they share a lot of physical characteristics that look very similar to our own. Even the word “orangutan” is derived from the Malay words for “person” and “forest”, although it’s been suggested that this might have been semantically tacked onto the apes when it originally referred to a mythical people of the forest.

Gigantopithecus, an extinct species of great ape closely related to orangutans, is also particularly interesting as a potential subject for Yeti/Bigfoot inspiration, as it’s remains have been found throughout southern China, and potentially as far as Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand, and India (although as far as India is concerned this is assuming Indopithecus is not it’s own species but rather a subspecies of Gigantopithecus), and as of yet it’s speculated to be the largest ape to ever exist (we don’t know for certain because all we have to go by are huge teeth and lower jaws as the only fossils we have of the species. But modern estimates currently put it at well over twice the weight of a gorilla). It also did live around the same time hunter-gatherer societies (or tribes?) were becoming more and more prominent, with the earliest known fossils dating to around two million years ago, which is also around the same time archaeological evidence for the earliest hunter-gatherers has been dated to, so odds are there were stories of these giant apes being passed around.

There also remains the possibility of our ancestors simply stumbling across the fossils of early hominids (many, many of whom looked VERY similar to us), and that may have also played a part in early man-ape stories.

Heh, this reminds me that in the setting of Marvel comic's 616 setting, the first Vampire in existence, Varnae (named after Varney the Vampire), was a Gigantopithecus turned vampire. Yep, Marvel had a vampire orangutan.

Rad.

He wasn't a joke character either. He was played seriously as far as comics go, being a sapient but willfully monstrous individual who refused to even pretend to be a human, eschewing clothes and other trappings of civilization. Varnae eventually grew weary of immortality, and passed his powers on to a fledgling vampire named Dracula before stepping out into sunlight.

I'm always a little skeptical about that sort of explanation. It's certainly possible but it seems very complicated.

It reminds me of the story of a historian trying to find the origin of the phrase 'Pass and Stow' written on the American Liberty Bell. After searching through a century of quotes, idioms and myths about sharing and storing he eventually learned the John Pass and John Stow were the metalworkers.

I think random hermit who was above average hairy is a more likely origin if not just a sun bear from an odd angle or a monkey seen by someone with bad depth perception.

Edited by Gaiazun on Mar 25th 2024 at 7:41:35 AM

Okay, the problem with this is that, in all these places you cite that Gigantopithecus remains have been found (southern China, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand, and India), they never have a Bigfoot/Giant Ape-Man myth. So it is not a correlation.

They do but but those myths are largely post bigfoot or need to be twisted to fit the bigfoot mold. I can't find any source on the Malay Orang Mawas that doesn't start by referring to it as the Malaysian bigfoot, most of them from literal bigfoot believers trying to prove their theory.

Is there a European bigfoot? It reminds of the ancient aliens in that it only seems to apply to places outside Europe even though you could easily fit Satyrs for example into the bigfoot mold.

Edited by Gaiazun on Mar 25th 2024 at 8:36:58 AM

Uh, you do know that the Himalayan Mountains, which are an important part of Yeti folklore, straddle the borders between India, China, and Nepal, right?

I would not be so quick to dismiss any correlation.

According to The Other Wiki, there’s the Basajaun of Basque mythology from the Iberian peninsula, although they’ve been suggested to be a “folk memory of early human contact with Neanderthals”.

Edited by Angelspawndragon on Mar 25th 2024 at 10:47:10 AM

Trey the Explainer did a video on Bigfoot, or to be more precise where the idea of Bigfoot being a pan-Native American entity came from.

(To keep a more than hour long video short, a lot of it has to do with outsider shoehorning of a bunch of unrelated beings, a lot of which don't even meet the Bigfoot criteria as defined by the video)

Edited by rmctagg09 on Apr 7th 2024 at 5:17:59 AM

Ethan Sabatella posted the third part of his scholarly review of the graphic novel Hound by Paul J. Bolger, Barry Devlin, and Dee Cunniffe based on the Irish myth of Cú Chulainn. https://swordslore.substack.com/p/hound-the-scholarly-review-iii-the

I wonder if the reverence for bulls came about after their domestication.

Or is it more likely it was rooted in simple animal worship that later evolved into the multitudes of different legends and myths about them?

I'm very happy that these reviews make it more and more obvious that I didn't miss anything from not reading it.

Granted, I am also spoiled for choice on reading material about heroism in the Irish sagas given I am currently chewing through a doctorate thesis on the subject.

It's because cattle are effectively rich people currency at the point in time in which the Táin was written. Same reason you see cattle raids in a lot of other material (like the Mahabharata.)

Edited by math792d on Mar 28th 2024 at 5:48:49 PM

who was doing the raiding? The Pandevas? The Karuvas? A third party?

Probably both sides.

Bheeshma's previous divine incarnation along with his brothers or colleagues I think tried to steal the divine cattle. For that they were cursed, and pleaded with Ganga to kill them on birth except for the leader himself who would only die after the end of the Dwapar yuga and Krishna's death. That ring leader was born as Bhishma. There are other stories of figures trying to steal a cow too. Parshuram's killing of all Kshatriyas 13 times or such was triggered by some evil princes trying to steal his father's cow (and then killing his father in revenge for him killing their father while retrieving the cattle) I believe

I don't recall the Pandavas and kauravas engaging in cattle raids themselves. They did invade Drupada's kingdom as part of Drona's fee.

Edited by xyzt on Mar 28th 2024 at 11:10:18 PM

Interesting that at one point, Morgan le Fay was Arthur's healer.

I wonder if that entry was a rare exception to their usually antagonistic relationship, or if their antagonism was more recent and the story of the bard Taliesin bringing Arthur to her to heal is a holdover from older stories where she was more of an ally, if not some Gaelic/Welsh healing goddess.

Looking into Basque mythology interestingly another Basque "bigfoot' the Jentil is a hairy giant, the builder of pre-christian megaliths is probably desendend from 'gentile' aka pre-christian person. No need to go as far back as Neanderthals. Just people who didn't fit into the new order.

I've taken an interest in Demonology and the Goetia lately. I want toa sk one question....what was Solomon doing making demons his servants?

^ Building the Temple of Jerusalem is what he was doing

While I'm sure that has played some part in Bigfoot-esque cryptid myths, I sincerely doubt "really hairy people that don't fit the norm" played as much of a factor as you think it does.

Again, I don't think it's a good idea to so quickly dismiss the idea that many of these myths derive, in some form or another, from early Homo sapiens encountering other hominids, especially since we know for an irrefutable fact that these encounters happened, and more importantly, said other hominids only went extinct fairly recently in the geological time scale.

Okay. I wanted to specifically ask where the idea of him binding 72 archdevils came from.

The number 72 specifically, binding demons at all, or...?

Binding demons at all. I figured that there is no biblical basis for "Solomon can and has bound demons" and wanted to ask about the actual origins of the Lesser Key and similar grimoires.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Apr 7th 2024 at 3:51:13 AM

Hmm. From some very perfunctory Wiki-walking it seems like there is basis for it in the Talmud. Basically every reference I can find to the story of Solomon building the Temple refers to it, in fact. It seems to fall into a sort of Jewish slash early-Christian mode where demons are just kind of Around, and Solomon's ring was used to bind them in order to keep them from interfering with the construction work. I'd imagine it also comes from the same mythological roots as elements of djinni and similar beings that can be commanded, at a risk.