Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.
Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.
Mod Edit: All right, there are a couple of ground rules here:
- This is not a thread for mindless bashing of religion or of atheism/agnosticism etc. All view points are welcome here. Let's have a civil debate.
- Religion is a volatile subject. Please don't post here if you can't manage a civil discussion with viewpoints you disagree with. There will be no tolerance for people who can't keep the tone light hearted.
- There is no one true answer for this thread. Don't try to force out opposing voices.
edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada
The law in the night
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Cause when people don't listen the them there is a chance they will listen the "Allah Akbar 72 virgins in paradise if you go boom on those kaffir".
A more liberal approach towards the interpretation of the Quran would do wonders to reduce the radicalization of the Muslim youth.
Inter arma enim silent leges
It's a bird.
Are you sure? You've been surprisingly vocal about your beliefs and opinions for someone who doesn't care.
edited 30th Sep '15 4:32:11 AM by Corvidae
Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
Religion evolves regardless if you meant it to or not. And I applaud these people because yes, you can take the Koran as a guideline and still be a faithful Muslim.
The Abrahamic faiths always put so much selective stock in their scriptures yet theirs are the most jacked up kinds.
Again, which Koran?
This is a start and they are not doomed to fail, especially since they have made it this far and popular culture has their back.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
That's a good question. Surely the Quran has been subject to changes in interpretation as the Arabic language has evolved , like all languages do
Lost in Space
The "it is unchanging and unchangeable" attitude is a sign of those hardliners who refuse to accept the possibility of a faith evolving over time. They will eventually die out, although it'll take much longer than the rest of the world is comfortable with.
Ultimately, it is an attitude that derives from fear of the unknown.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
People consider adamant refusal to change with the times either a major strength or a major weakness with not much room in-between.
I mean, no matter which way you swing it Islam is stuck in the fifth century on certain levels, and the biggest divide seems to be whether or not this is a good thing.
United Earth
No, you can't. What you can do is work within the hard-set limits the Qur'an establishes, which, believe me, are pretty damn wide and roomy, if you do even the slightest effort of interpretation. The Qur'an is already mostly a guideline; what's ambiguous is deliberately so, and what's explicit and clear is deliberately so.
Heck, the Prophet made sure that people stop asking him to deliver rules for everything by pointing out the example of the Jews and their overburdened Talmud, and attributing that state of affairs to them not knowing when to shut up and stop sweating the details.
What popular culture? It depends a lot on which country you're in.
Just 50 years ago those people could have been killed for proposing you can be a Muslim and acknowledge the potential fallibility of the Koran.
Now they are a growing, organized community attempting to be socially active and instrumental.
You can be dragged kicking and screaming, but it is happening. In the next 50 years it will be interesting to see how it evolves.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
A nice butterfly
The Bible and The Talmud explicitly calls for the stoning of adulterers. Recently, the Catholic Church allowed a closer approach to people who divorced.
As for the quran, how about Quran 8:12? Or how about Quran 8:15?
Would that not make it illegal in quranic law to retreat from any battle? Even Salah al-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub (Saladin) retreated in battle when it was necesary and he was a badass motherfucker.
So, according to Quran 8:22
Is there, or is there not room to allow for sequential logic and consequences? Is there only blind fanatism, or is there a "Ok. Sit down and think this through" moments?
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
It's a bird.
"You who have believed"? That's an odd way to phrase it.
A nice butterfly
"Let's eat, Grandma"
vs
"Let's eat Grandma"
GRAMMAR KILLS
Brought to you by the Grammar Nazi association
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
"Are you sure? You've been surprisingly vocal about your beliefs and opinions for someone who doesn't care."
But that's why I continue to share my beliefs and opinions. I appreciate it when someone responds in an intelligent way, but I wouldnt stop just because someone didnt like it.
A nice butterfly
I am far more reasonable. I only punch people that disagree with me.
I mean.
The nerve.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
I don't know too much about Islam, but I know fatwas are a thing. Aren't they an addendums to Islamic texts/laws created from study and discussion among Islamic scholars? Or am I wrong? Could someone elucidate me then, please?
I mean, the one I know of is how a muslim astronaut should pray in space. Which I find very interesting.
A nice butterfly
Mob in India murders muslim man for rumors of consuming cow meat
See, Islam? it is not just christianity that can be absolutely batshit insane!
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Resident Bollywood Nerd
...
More fun from Hindutva.
RANT INCOMING
Honestly, Americans have a tendency to rant about the 'Christian Taliban' in the You Ass, but I don't think anything is as close to the actual Taliban as Hindutva fundamentalists, complete with 'X is wrong, but..' defence, liberals occasionally rushing to their defence, and killing people who agitate against them. Two rationalists have died this year (Govind Pansare and MM Kalburgi), complete with celebrations of their deaths and Twitter threats to other rationalists and Modi skeptics. (Hell, I have received death threats when I opposed the ban on beef - or porn, I forget which).
You know what my avatar is? It is the cover of 'Madhorubhagan' by Perumal Murugan, which has now been banned, after he was harassed and hounded by BJP people so much that he decided to pulp all of his unsold books and declare himself dead as a writer (His words: Perumal Murugan the writer is dead. As he is no God, he is not going to resurrect himself. He also has no faith in rebirth. An ordinary teacher, he will live as P. Murugan. Leave him alone.). This was because of sexual content in the context of religion, obviously not to the BJP's liking.
The issue is, Modi sarkar doesn't seem to care. You'd think an organisation like the Sanatan Sanstha would be banned when it was linked to two (three, actually, one back in 2012 or something) murders and celebrations of the deaths. But no, the organisation is still completely legal and distributing pamphlets (though it has reduced).
A lot of Modi fans argue that the election of Modi, if it really were the end of India as a secular society, would have provoked pogroms and riots and immediate genocide of all non-Hindus - that this has not happened is proof that any concerns about the Modi government are on par with fears that Barack Obama is the Antichrist. But one need not kill a puppy by slashing its throat - it spills too much blood, the animal makes too much noise, it struggles too much, and other people tend to notice. If you anaesthetise it first, it will be docile as you take it to the slaughterhouse.
END RANT (SOME HYPERBOLE)
edited 30th Sep '15 9:55:53 PM by arcanephoenix
noisivelet naht nuf erom era srorrim
A nice butterfly
I find a religion that makes it ok for gods to decapitate people and dance on their corpses ok but killing a cow absolutely anathema to be kinda weird
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
My understanding is that a fatwa is nothing more than a pronouncement by a cleric. They carry the same level of authority the cleric does.
United Earth
That's precisely it.
Of course, when the cleric is the head of a freaking theocracy...
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Oh, I thought it was something more organized than that. Not to the point of a single muslim leader speaking to all muslims, but more like produced through debate among muslim scholars and cleris. Although if it's pronounced by the leader of a theocracy, I suppose within the country it's sort of like a single leader speaking to all muslims.
Resident Bollywood Nerd
So, it's functionally no different from a edict, or as seems to happen often, a contract hit, with money replaced with perceived 'holiness' or piety or whatever.
noisivelet naht nuf erom era srorrim
United Earth
Not replaced, added.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A nice butterfly
Teehee. Just read stuff about even Satanism is a religion with splinters and stuff.
Seriously. At this point it should be a rule for religion. "If you don't have offshoots, you are not a religion".
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
United Earth
What about a religion of me?
Until Cloning Blues is invented.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Anyway, why should they care whether or not anyone else listens to them? I dont.