Women's Issues

The thing is, all those don't be a rapist campaigns work, and they work far better than insisting that women are never allowed to drink anything or trust or love anyone. Since that's what a lot of rape prevention advice comes down to. A lot of it's just not practical unless you want to be a hermit forever.

Oh don't start pulling the "it's useless to argue with you" card now. What you said was "I think it's better to inform people what's actually legal or not, and what types of behaviour lead to those situations, without implying guilt or tendency to rape in the people it targets".

As I clearly said, this only addresses HALF the problem because what we specifically want to do is imply guilt or tendency to rape in people who think that certain things which qualify as rape are, in their mind, okay. Are you a guy in a frat house that shares stories about passing around a drunk girl? Are you someone who got a sorority girl drunk and had sex with her last week? Are you someone who may not have done these things, but thinks there's nothing wrong with them? Then you are exactly the person we are talking to. We want you to feel guilty about that shit. We want you own up to your decisions. We want you to think twice the next time you're in the same situation.

Does this offend you? Make you angry? Make you think we're singling you out? We don't care. Just don't do that shit again.

edited 15th Mar '14 9:46:00 AM by KingZeal

I'm just going to disagree and say that I don't think it's okay to imply all men and only men are potential rapists.

The problem I see with a "don't rape" campaign is that it doesn't explain that there is more to rape than just the stereotypical ideas. What I'd say you need is more of a "getting her drunk so she'll have sex with you is rape, don't be that guy" or "putting something in her drink isn't a bit of fun, it's rape" or "if she says no than that's that, pushing her to have sex with you isn't playing the game, it's rape". As thouse kind of campaigns explain how accepted things are rape instead of just going "don't rape".

Err... I thought that was the point of most anti-rape campaigns. I ever saw a PSA about it that shows how horrible it is to have sex with a drunk girl

That's how those anti-rape campaigns generally work, though. Check some 'Don't Be That Guy' posters.

edited 15th Mar '14 9:58:07 AM by Iaculus

I'm not really sure why having sex with a drunk woman is supposed to be bad. Of course getting a person drunk to take advantage of them is bad, but that's not quite the same thing...I mean, odds are good the male party would also be be drunk, so.

I guess I could understand thinking having sex while drunk is bad, regardless of genders.

I mean, I am aware that a lot of rape involves alcohol. But I'm not really comfortable with the idea that having sex while drunk is always rape, IDK...

Course I guess I could be missing something obvious. :S

@Another Duck: Is it not also insulting to teach women how to protect themselves from rape? After all it paints them all as too stupid to figure that out themselves.

"It insults me" is a very poor argument. Either you already know it and don't have to feel adressed. Or you don't. In which case you need to hear it. I never felt insulted if the teacher taught us something I already knew, I felt proud to already know it. And I'd rather "insult" some people by teaching them what they already know than let others getting raped. If it teaches some unknowing people stuff you can damn well swallow your pride and hear the lesson too, even if you know it already.

And do you apply the same logic to anti-bullying campaigns? Is it also too insulting for kids to hear they should not bully?

If you're intoxicated you cannot give informed consent, hence it is rape. You cannot sign other kinds of contracts either when under the influence of drugs.

edited 15th Mar '14 11:09:11 AM by Antiteilchen

That's not quite the same thing. Saying or implying women as a group are incapable of protecting themselves is rather insulting. Saying, "This is how you protect yourself," doesn't imply the same as, "Do this unless you want to be like all other women." Teaching isn't insulting, but judging can be.

That above doesn't insult me personally for some obvious reasons if you know me. But I find it an insulting implication, and it perpetuates stereotypes.

edited 15th Mar '14 11:28:35 AM by AnotherDuck

@1178: Since female-on-male and lesbian rape are things that exist, I see no reason not to also include "Don't Be That Gal" PS As and classes.

I don't really like that either, but it is an improvement they failed to include. What they did have was at least one male-male poster, which means it doesn't perpetuate the stereotype of women equals victim (by saying men can be victims too). And as I mentioned before, the campaign as a whole is for the overall better thing, but it's got a severe flaw that should be solved.

The difference is that there's no obligation for women to learn how to protect themselves. The message is less direct and judgmental because it isn't a sin to choose to be vulnerable.

On the other hand, it IS a sin (or crime, or whatever)to do things that qualify as rape. Directly telling people not to do those sort of things, and passing value judgments on people that do are both tools to get the point across that this is NOT acceptable.

Regarding "Don't be that guy" campaigns: If you are not that guy, then good for you. Continue being awesome.

If you are that guy, stop it. If you feel offended because you are that guy, good. We are offended by your behavior. Stop it.

Simple enough. The only people who need to feel offended at having rapist behavior called out for being rapist behavior are people who indulge in rapist behavior, and quite frankly, those people's personal feelings are the lowest priority on the issue.

edited 15th Mar '14 5:43:13 PM by TobiasDrake

So what do you think about the "Don't be that girl" reaction campaign, if you've heard of it?

I haven't. What about it?

Sounds fine to me, assuming it's pushing the same message of anti-rape and isn't some crazy women-hating campaign forged out of anger and hatred.

I'd agree. "Don't be that bitch (who does X)" would be a fine thing. If X is "eggs her friends on to sexually harass somebody else and take pictures" or "who thinks it's OK to get her boyfriend drunk to get laid" or whatever.

It's not. It has messages like "Just because you can't remember anything doesn't mean you were drugged." It's basically advocating that women not report anything that happens to them.

edited 15th Mar '14 7:33:51 PM by shimaspawn

Eh? Who said anything about that? <confused> Because... that's not proactive at all... <_<

That's what the "Don't be that girl" campaign is about.

It is an actual thing? What campaign? <confused>

There's a protest counter-campaign to the don't be that guy campaign that basically insists that women shouldn't say anything about hinky things that happen to them.

It's sad how predictable it is that these things won't be helpful and productive...

Yeah. -_- Seriously? "Because you can't remember it clearly and hurt like hell down there... don't report it because that makes you a bitch-queen fantasist with a drink-problem, you skank"?! What?

edited 15th Mar '14 8:44:39 PM by Euodiachloris

If that's the case, shouldn't all bars have a one drink limit? After someone consumes their first drink, they're under the influence of alcohol, so accepting anymore money from them would be the same as theft.