Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

Yeah, A.K.I is pretty popular.

I fail to see how she demonizes feminine women when Chun-Li is in the same game.

In a vacuum, maybe she isn't too much of an issue. But she's one of many instances of female villains being played as blatantly sexual and certainly not the only example in Street Fighter franchise alone.

Maybe she's not the best example of what I mean but she's still part of an annoying trend.

AKI also feels more crazy murder hobo than a vamp since at least from my understanding the only reason there isn't a mountain of dead bodies is because fang asked she not do that.

Yeah, she's clearly more of psychotic killer than seductress.

And she's far more unnerving than sexy. Which I prefer TBH.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 26th 2023 at 3:06:59 AM

"Something like A.K.I. from Street Fighter 6 is far more damaging to feminine women"

No offence, but saying this is exactly the same thing you're criticizing about Chuds that dislike how Western Video Game characters are "Ugly" but in the opposite way.

Many women LOVE Femme Fatales, its why they are so popular when it comes to cosplay. They are often THE most popular cosplay options at that.

Hell for many she is sexy because she is crazy, if she mellow out, people would find her less sexy.

Just as many women hate them or at least hate that they are so common among female villains.

Not to be the demographic police, but is anyone currently arguing on this topic a woman? I'd much rather hear from them than from two male tropers engaging in an uncited "some people say" proxy war.

Trans woman here, if that helps.

Women have different opinions. We're allowed to. And I can't help but feel this discussion is a touch white knight-y.

Here, but uhhh... don't have any idea who the charecter causing the current dispute even is, so have no oppinion.

I apologize. I did not intend to come across that way.

I was watching this video defending G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra and there's a section of it that I feel is relevant here.

@14:13 The section concerns the character of the Baroness, who is usually a dyed-in-the-wool villain but for this movie is reimagined as brainwashed minion. Apparently, there is one continuity where she was brainwashed but chose to remain evil even after it was broken. The video posits that this was done to avert the "Eastern European/evil foreigner" villain which was very common in the franchise's heyday (although Ana is American in this continuity and Cobra still has at least three non-American members in the film). Also, as someone who didn't really observe this, was the High-Heel–Face Turn trope that prevalent in the 2000s as this video says?

The video does argue against the idea that Baroness is a damsel in distress since she is not helpless and unrelated to the plot for most of the movie and even fights off the nanites herself.

On another note, I do find it funny that there is apparently a history of Duke constantly getting kidnapped given he seems like the typical male action hero and wouldn't usually be in that position. Even with that in mind, he does turn that to his favor in this movie by making sure his team can locate him.

Edited by windleopard on Dec 1st 2023 at 1:37:38 PM

Let's talk about female characters and character agency. I'll break this into two posts as it will be quite long.

Character agency basically means the ability of a character to take action that affects the plot in some way. When it comes to female characters, there is a great deal of discussion about how much agency they have, whether they are doing things vs letting things just happen to. Sometimes a character will be denied agency by the writer as a means of making a point about the setting's society.

However, there are times when criticizing a female character for a supposed lack of agency comes across like certain members of the audience basically just want an excuse to hate a female character guilt free and getting angry when the narrative makes her "too sympathetic".

An example of this is Ursa from Avatar: The Last Airbender. If you've watched the show (and only the show), you're familiar enough with Ursa as the mother of Prince Zuko, who was the only good influence in his life besides his uncle and apparently was the one who poisoned Fire Lord Azulong to save his life.

Fast forward five years after the show's finale and we get The Search, a sequel comic which explores Ursa's past. We learn that Ursa was a Fire Nation village girl who was forced into marriage with Ozai due to the Fire Sages' prophecy that she would give birth to a strong heir. Despite being made to leave her family, friends and her lover Ikem, Ursa still keeps in contact with him through letters. The comic also confirms Ursa did indeed poison Azulong and finally reveals what became of her after this - she was banished by Ozai and, feeling depressed over not being able to see her children anymore and unable to deal with knowing they were being raised by Ozai, Ursa went to a spirit called the Mother of Faces who took away Ursa's memories and gave her a new face.

Now, some would call Ursa's decision selfish and impulsive. Some would even say her saying that she wished Zuko was Ikem's son instead of Ozai's was a foolish thing to say to a cruel and abusive man like Ozai (as Ozai uses that line as an excuse to further abuse Zuko whom he already hated for not being as good at firebending as Ozai).

Edited by windleopard on Jan 2nd 2024 at 6:30:48 PM

Ursa in The Search is not a faultless woman. She is a victim and her decision to forget her children is painted as an act of tragedy by a woman who has been denied agency for so long, but the comic does acknowledge that this is not a good thing. Yet, to hear it from some fans (especially Azula fans), Ursa either never cared about her children and willingly abandoned them to live with her childhood boyfriend or this revelation makes Ursa "boring" because it contradicts their perception of Ursa as a Fire Nation imperialist whose only redeeming quality was her love for Zuko (and not for Azula) and was otherwise just as bad as Ozai. To the latter group, the Search is a bad story because it dares to tell us what was already implied by the show - that Ursa was as much a victim of Ozai as Zuko and Azula were.

This response to Ursa was the first time I realized just how unsympathetic fandoms can be towards female characters and how little empathy they can have for them. Even before the Search came out, it was quite common to see takes about how Ursa really did see Azula as a monster and was abusive to her the same way Ozai was abusive to Zuko. Because it was more "interesting" if Ursa was just Ozai in female form. The idea that a woman, even one in the royal family, would have so little power in a place like the Fire Nation is impossible to wrap their heads around.

Ursa's lack of agency in her own story is meant to emphasize the cruelty of the Fire Nation's toxic culture but some fans can't see past that because they seem to want a female character they can hate without feeling guilty.

I admit I dont like the search and issue here is, for all Ursa feel bad about it, Ozai keep his bargain(even when he have not reason too) and because the spirit, she manage to get a new life free from worry every mother would have and then when she got it bad, Zuko is ready to forgive her and Azula is to derange to count.

Like compared to Katara confrontation with her mother killer, one of the most serious and adult moments were katara manage to forgive but not forgot what happen and she tell anag very clearly that she will never forgive him for what happen and will have to live with that, is very raw in how Katara understand that vengance will not bring her mother and neither will make her feel good but also cant ger rid of the bitterness of the whole thing, compared to that, Ursa just kinda get scott free in that regard.

I think it also needsly complicate the issue here because it dosent really matter what Ursa can said when Ozai is stock villian as it is who is very much irredeemable monster so to sneak a flaw like this is unecesary for many.

Ozai had a reason to keep his bargain. The whole reason he made that bargain was because he was worried Ursa would one day poison him.

And seriously, comparing Ursa to the random asshole who killed Katara's mother? How is that a reasonable comparison?

Instead, compare Ursa to Katara's father Hakoda. Katara had issues with Hakoda not being there for her or Sokka especially after their mother died. But she forgave him.

I think the main reason people are divisive about The Search is because it disproves the idea that Ursa was some saintly mother figure.

Living parents in the Avatar series don't get to be perfect. The only perfect parents are the dead ones like Kya. Living parents in the series are flawed (sometimes to the point of being abusive like Ozai and Yakone and Unalaq).

Shit, even Aang turned out to be a flawed parent. His mistakes as a father left all three of his kids with various issues.

Edited by M84 on Jan 3rd 2024 at 3:17:53 AM

"How is that a reasonable comparison?"

Im taking about resolutions, katara didnt have in any way a fitting end to her dilema, she just have to acept thing as it is in a quite bitter way. Ursa just manage to get rid of her feeling by the spirit and Zuko is more willing to forgive her.

Like is one thing to have flawed parents and quite another have what I see as quite weird set up for drama

What are you talking about? The resolution of that was very uplifting. Katara got over her resentment of Zuko remember?

That was the actual point of the episode: Katara finally forgiving Zuko for his earlier hunting of Team Avatar and his past betrayal.

I'm fine with Katara not forgiving her mother's killer nor killing him in revenge. She let him live not out of mercy but because he was a pathetic sadsack and not worth her time.

Edited by M84 on Jan 4th 2024 at 4:03:45 AM

If anything, letting the guy live was a form of Cruel Mercy.

It's also very much not a case of "forgiven but not forgotten". Katara doesn't forgive or forget that the asshole killed her mother. She just decided he was too pathetic to bother thinking about anymore. He just wasn't worth it.

By contrast, she does forgive Zuko and accepts him as a full member of Team Avatar. It's not even a case of "Forgiven but not Forgotten" since she doesn't really bring up his past betrayal ever again.

On another message board, a query came about asking if a reboot of I Dream of Jeannie could work in the modern day without being problematic. Makes me wonder if it could be done, you may have to get rid of the "Master" line and just have her refer to Nelson by his name or his military rank and maybe make her outfit a bit less provocative.

(posting this here as it could dovetail into a discussion about the topic in question)

Probably have Jeannie take more inspiration from more mythological takes of djinn and not rely on Orientalist stereotypes that are problematic in Western renditions. Having multiple genies with different philosophies, rather than just Jeannie and her mother, would help that out, so you don't only have 2 examples acting as the entire representation of genies.

You may also have to revamp the relationship between Major Nelson and Jeannie, depending on how you want to go about it. The original Jeannie is a bit problematic from both directions. In one way, you have this fantasy of a woman falling head over heels at first sight who will do anything for you and can grant you any fantasy (while also being denied, which falls into this showing the main male character as morally upright to not take advantage). At the other end, Jeannie is basically Major Nelson's stalker, forcing her way into his life without his consent and because she was set free in the first episode, she's causing all this misery willfully and it's treated as comedy. Depending what a creative wants, you can run with it in many directions, either removing the problematic elements or keeping them and commenting on them.

Edited by HeyMikey on Jan 17th 2024 at 2:02:41 AM

A reboot couldn't work, but I don't think it would be because of a particular political reason (worse stuff gets made today and does fine), but because the original show was a specific kind of sitcom that's since fallen out of favor.

I agree it wouldn't be successful as a show. The question if it could be made so that it is not problematic raises the question what is problematic? This is no clear standard as to what is problematic and what is not. Unless you suscribe to the idea that everything is problematic, then the answer is no.

The interesting thing about I Dream of Jeanie, is that the premise might be described as every guy's fantasy, but it actually causes problems for the male protagonist. One can interpret it as a social commentary. It is ultimately the story of a woman's struggle to choose who she can marry.

I always saw that show the somewhat 90 conservative version of a typical harem or romantic anime really: Jeannie is madly in love with him and can give him anything he wants but because he is a sort of stand up guy he dosent take advantage.

It sound almost like a parody but rather is as far they can let that male fantasy stand without being creepy.