MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
A procrastination in of itself
The "it's objectification not sexism" argument only works if objectification of women is suddenly not being regarded as sexism.
On top of that the idea that he shouldn't object is certainly an idea that has its roots in gender roles, likewise the fact that he's mocked for wanting to be thought of as more then sex appeal reeks of sexism and people thinking that men should never complain about anything.
He's not conforming to his gender role and folks are pissed, how is that not sexism?
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Uh, yeah, he used the right word. Not wanting to be judged by your looks means you don't want to be objectified. Being treated as an object also entirely applies to your looks, as well as ignoring any personality/thoughts/opinions you have. Objects don't think for themselves, they just exist and look good while doing so.
Objectification is heavily part of physical looks. Objectifying women, for instance, is a phrase referring to their physical forms, ignoring everything else. That's why a sexy look can possibly be objectifying.
He definitely used the proper word. Wanting to be judged on his actions is good regardless. It makes sense. What you do is important. What you look like is only important to a degree. You should still look presentable(as in, reasonable looking clothing for whatever location you're in, neatly shaven enough to not be a distraction from people trying to work, or making sure you're clean if working in a restaraunt). Stuff like that. Things like perfectly matching clothes are a matter of opinion. Whether you prefer long or short hair is an opinion. There's still a very basic quota of decency to apply, but looks aren't the most important thing. Professionalism has its key moments.
United Earth
The wrong word is sexism, not objectification. Objectification is exactly the right word. They didn't treat him like a pretty young thing because of his gender, but because he's pretty. Sexism simply makes it more likely for a person of the lower status sex (whichever it happens to be) to receive this treatment, along with other bad treatments.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A procrastination in of itself
No sexism means that this treatment is based on gender roles and stereotypes, it's entirely possible for both genders to be treated in a sexist manner.
Also note the full quote.
It's pretty clear he doesn't like "being called a babe" and is having his objections put down and ignored due to gender based reasons.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
United Earth
Ah. Yeah, that's bad.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Absolutely no relation to NLK
Hm, I don't think I've seen a male actor complain about being objectified before. He has a point, of course — have you seen the amount of "Kit Harrington is so hot" pieces?—, but this is the first time I'm aware of that a man has actually expressed discomfort over it.
I mean, the byline of the article describes him as the "Game of Thrones heartthrob".
edited 1st Jun '16 10:43:09 AM by Ninety
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
belongs to the hurricane
The cultural stigma of "men shouldn't ever complain about anything and just take it" as well as the obvious victimization contest that would ensue might keep a lot of male actors afraid to speak up.
And it's not like he's trying to one up anyone. He's not saying that he's suffering or oppressed or anything of the kind. He's only saying that he's uncomfortable being objectified because of his looks, just as he's sure (he's careful to point out) that women are. And he gets told essentially, to "Shut up, prettyboy." Jon Snow ought to shave his head and acquire an interesting facial scar...
Also, it isn't really a matter of whether he used the correct term or not. Arguing over the nomenclature just strays from the point, and does seem in danger of dragging the discussion into "men don't suffer as much as women" territory, which is not implied in anything Harrington said.
No, the other one.
Need more people to speak out like him. Good of him.
Check out my fanfiction!
It's telling that, in the articles I've read about this, the first thing pretty much every writer says right after they report Harrington's comments is "Sexism in Hollywood is worse for women! Women are paid less! Don't think they aren't!" It's like they think they're denying that women get unfairly treated if they admit that sometimes men are too.
I'm so sick of zero-sum game tomato throwing bullshit. This applies to just about every ideology out there.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Looks are not an accomplishment. Respect his accomplishments.
Looks can totally be an accomplishment. You don't just wake up in the morning and look like this
◊. Or this
. It takes hard work to sculpt a physique like that.
Not every role is as demanding as being, say, Thor, but getting in shape for a role can take months of strenuous activity, rigorous dietary management, and back-breaking effort.
edited 1st Jun '16 1:01:29 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
edited 1st Jun '16 1:01:36 PM by Antiteilchen
United Earth
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
'That is so true.'
But when I did all those things and achieved beauty... well, it was rewarding to see people treat me nicer, but it didn't feel like I had earned them. I just groomed and dressed myself better; it's not like I did anything for them.
As for those so beautiful everyone wants to get in their pants, what counts as genuine kindness towards them anymore? Who can they trust to respect them for who they are?
edited 1st Jun '16 1:06:14 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Absolutely no relation to NLK
The article says that he had made a comment to that effect before and faced similar backlash, and that he said he'd "go back to being a good little hunk". I feel for him.
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
belongs to the hurricane
Yeah that's really fucked up, in all honesty.
United Earth
But that response is phrased very petulantly, though. I hope that's not how he feels every day.
By the way, what's up with Orlando Bloom?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I wouldn't call it petulant, I'd call it a succinct encapsulation of what most people responding to his comments were telling him.
belongs to the hurricane
Yeah that was pretty much why he phrased it that way.
Absolutely no relation to NLK
I'm hesitant to throw the term "victim blaming" around like confetti, since I feel it gets misused a lot, but dude's got a right to complain.
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
That's all, folks
That article and the immature comments from maladjusted women in twitter were a good illustration of the sexism toward him.
Amused
The eye candy objectification issue goes both ways. Sadly this guy isn't the first to experience it and he won't be the last.
I have had girls and guys act very creepy over my looks in real life before. It isn't as pleasant as one might think and it's very frustrating when you want to be measured by personality, likes, and actions rather then just your looks.
Formerly known as Bleddyn And I am feeling like a ghost Resident Perky Goth
I have argentina friend who show me girl can be creepy and ptuchy too, aparenly he have big butt and for what he tell me, some girl make it very clear, even worker parner said that "aside of good ass, he isnt worth it" which was pretty damn sexist
So yeah, it can happen
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
When I turn on the TV, I see yet another show showing perverted men taking advantage of helpless women, repeating the already-often-repeated message that it's wrong for men to treat women as sex objects. As if they're all beating a dead horse.
But I look at other sorts of media that do treat women as sex objects, and RL examples of men treating women as sex objects, and wonder if the horse is really dead yet.
Then I look back at the shows saying "men, don't rape women, it's bad!", and see that none of them think about why men think of and treat women as sex objects. Such media doesn't tackle the underlying assumptions, or where they come from, or the social pressures that bring men to acting in a certain way. I suspect men are receiving conflicting messages - on one hand, half their media says being a man means interacting with women only to have sex with them and it's really necessary otherwise you're a loser with nothing left, but on the other hand they're told women are delicate things who don't actually want sex and you shouldn't be having sex with them.
What is actually going on, anyway? Why are there so many RL examples of men treating women as sex objects that get repeated over a thousand times, while women treating men as sex objects is unheard of*?
* I also suspect men are pressurized into shutting up and 'manning up'. In this case "unheard of" is taken a bit more literally to mean "In spite of their rate of actual occurrence IRL, I barely ever hear of cases of men being mistreated by women". It does not mean such cases do not happen, only that such cases literally do not reach my ears or eyes even when they happen.
It's sexism when an woman can say "stop objectifying me" and be listened, while a man who says the same thing is ignored or even mocked for not 'being a real man'. But then I've heard of cases where women saying "stop objectifying me" are also ignored or even mocked for not 'being a real woman', so our sexism/misogynism seems to be all over the place...
edited 17th Jun '16 12:59:24 AM by hellomoto
Look, I wholeheartedly agree with him, I just think he used the wrong word, and I find the way he complained to be hilariously whiny and teen-like, but he's right.
Looks are not an accomplishment. Respect his accomplishments.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.