Sexism and Men's Issues

Nah never was. It's not something that bothers me a ton in the long term though(it was a symptom of the anxiety issues, and it's the anxiety issues that bother me still).

But it does happen.

Catcalls and the like are a big problem, I think, I'm just not sure how to actually address them. It's not something that I've ever actually witnessed, to be honest, so I don't really know the culture that they stem from. But one thing I do think is that sort of behavior (harassing behavior) is more than just a gender thing. As a culture we actually do tend to tell boorish people that it's OK to act that way, and that's the problem.

I completely agree with you.

Women are banned from strip clubs in my state without male escorts due to just the high level of harassment that happens. I don't know if it's different in other states.

I have talked with some girls who said that they "treat men the way they treat us". They're frustrated with the vulgar or just horrid things men say to them, so they "return the favor". I understand their frustration, but I don't approve of their methods. To me it's petty.

I also get upset based on the setting. For example, if I'm D Ding for my friends at a club, I expect men to be more aggressive or mouthy than say, a grocery store. I can excuse the actions at the club (within reason) because that is a specific environment where men are allowed if not expected to behave in that way (again, to a degree).

But I will not forgive the people who bark at me from their cars when I'm running or the guy in line at the grocery store who says I have "rape me legs". And women need to stand up against other women who are the same way towards men. I've called women out for it because as much as I hate it, it's safer for me to call them out than for a man to. (Just like there have been men who have called out other idiots on my behalf before.)

The big problem at least for me is that I can't even comprehend the mindset that would result in someone saying that to someone else. It is completely entirely foreign to me. There's other bad things in the world that I can somewhat comprehend, to a certain degree, even if I would never do it myself. This? Can't comprehend at all.

What I suspect is that it's a matter of confidence. These people see themselves as being charming and witty and think that because of that they're not doing anything wrong, and people without that self-confidence wouldn't even think about doing something like that.

Edit:One of the problems with these conversations, is that the people who need to hear that this sort of thing are going to entirely ignore it as they don't see themselves as they could possibly be creepy, but the people who ARE going to hear it already assume they are creepy and as such they take it on the chin pretty hard.

edited 14th Oct '12 12:06:01 PM by Karmakin

One thing I think of is a false sense of entitlement.

The customers who asked me if I knew who my baby's daddy was when I was pregnant, the person who thinks vulgarities are a way to get someone's attention, even those who use it as a retribution against certain attention, all feel as if they have some sort of right to talk and act that way.

Well if she wouldn't wear that skimpy outfit, if he wouldn't be the only young man in the office, it's free speech, if men/women would stop treating me like that...

I don't think a lot of people are malicious and actively say things to be mean, though some do. I think most people just are so insulated in their own little world, they don't realize how they can come off to others.

From what I know of hip hop culture, if a black guy all urban'd out calls me a "fine bitch" or "shorty", he may honestly may be trying to give me a compliment, just like the nerdy guy who compares me to his favorite porn star (yes, both of these have happened). But they just don't realize that I am not in their circle. I do not accept their norms, and that sort of language is both insulting and gives me a negative impression of them.

And those of both genders who expect people to cater to their norms, normally have the sense of entitlement that "Why don't you see it my way?" or "my intentions make it okay".

And some people are actively malicious. I would just prefer to give the population the benefit of the doubt initially than let their latter actions or follow up be the judgement call.

If you don't mind me asking, Karmakin, was that a concerted effort by a small group of bullies or just shit you were getting from everywhere?

Define small and everywhere.

Truth is that growing up in an even medium sized town those things are often one and the same. There were what..100 people in my graduating class? Probably a bit more than that actually, 140? But yeah, it was common pretty much every place I could possibly go out.

Weird thing is, even though it might sound like a typical case of social bullying, it kind of isn't, I wasn't really ostracized by these people, it's just the way it was. Doesn't make it right, of course, but I do think there's an important distinction there.

@post 1479: Lot of truth there, Gabrael. I likewise wish that people would stop talking about harassment like its only one gender's problem. The whole scenario creates problems for everyone...and that means not just the harasser or the target, but all the decent people just trying to get through life without offending those around them.

Though as to your previous post, anyone who uses the word "rape" in a sentence designed to be complimentary clearly has some brainpower issues at the very least.

edited 14th Oct '12 10:42:20 PM by drunkscriblerian

By 'everywhere', I meant total strangers regularly making unpleasant comments at you. Because whilst what happened to you was awful ( and arguably worse), I'd posit that it's a different kind of awful than the cat-calling and harassment women usually face, which is mostly from people who don't know them.

@Karmakin Article: The metaphor of the Wealthy White Westerner In Calcutta is a pretty good sum up don't you think?

edited 15th Oct '12 1:12:36 PM by joeyjojo

In unrelated but good news the UN's refugee agency has released guidelines for helping male victims of sexual violence. Yay progress!

Oh, it's totally different. But someone asked...

In any case, I don't think it's something we're going to be able to do something about, as I don't really think it's about gender so much as it's about social privilege. That is, that we tend to as a society place a higher value towards louder and more extroverted personalities as opposed to quieter and more introverted ones. In that way, catcalls and the like are seen by the people who do them (I think) as a way of showing how "alpha" someone is.

I don't believe there's very much interest in tackling the issue from that direction, and as such I don't think that you're going to fix it any time soon (as the mixed signals will continue)

It's a good analogy (not perfect). I think the series as a whole lays out how tricky and web-like the subject is.

edited 15th Oct '12 3:17:05 AM by Karmakin

That is all kind of awesome. I got a bit of a negative opinion of the UN regarding gender issues, so it's good to hear they change in that regard.

It is curious how it appears to affect men and women in different ways, though, no? If it was purely about society favouring extroversion, you'd expect everyone to get it the same way.

Besides, it's not like anyone believes that yelling 'nice ass' from a speeding car is likely to result in any kind of meaningful conversation.

In regards to your comments about 'extrovert privilege', I did read a book about that recently, funnily enough - Quiet, by Susan Cain. I wouldn't actually recommend it, though - it was whiny, rambling, self-contradictory pile of bullshit that exercised zero critical analysis, demonstrated only the most rudimentary understanding of the science it flung around, and frankly rather soured me on the entire concept.

Well stifling gender roles are a thing, after all. It's seen as a bad thing for women to act in such a fashion, and almost mandatory for males to do it. That's why the discrepancy exists IMO.

And I'm not surprised that the book sucks. Unfortunately most of the writing out there about these sorts of topics is pretty bad, in my opinion because it looks at these things from an academic as opposed to a practical viewpoint.

Actually, that book did the opposite - I think a bit of academic rigour would have helped quite a bit. When you're identifying a problem and proposing a plan of action, it helps to have a good handle on what you're talking about.

I'll have to read it then and see if I simply disagree with you then :p

Sure, but I'll warn you - one of the sources Cain cites as gospel claims that America and Europe favour extroversion in their cultures because we had longer to travel from humanity's birthplace - pioneers, being outgoing sorts, are genetically more extroverted.

See if you can spot all the things wrong with that. Go on. I'll wait.

edited 15th Oct '12 3:16:02 PM by Iaculus

<facepalm> Yeah. Um. We all came from a small area, probably in East Africa (and some turned back to explore the rest of Africa we'd previously ignored).

Of course, this means we all just have to be the descendants of explorers, simply due to population movement over time. Dear Lord: you'd think we didn't evolve bipedalism to walk better in the savannah to move to the next source of food, or something.

edited 15th Oct '12 3:19:52 PM by Euodiachloris

Plus, y'know, Europe is right on top of the Fertile Crescent. The Greeks, by that logic, shouldn't be catcalling people - they should be hiding under tables passing politely-written notes to each other.

And that's just scratching the surface. The Mayflower Puritans? Total party animals, amirite?

Oh, hell, yes.

Oh... and some of the greatest overland travelers of all time? The Mongals. So totally European. And, well... being Asian... such total introverts who wouldn't have left much of a genetic impact on the general global population. Oh, no: of course not.

edited 15th Oct '12 3:30:33 PM by Euodiachloris

Ahhhh...so it's that Diamond-ish level of bullshit. I get what you're saying. Yes, quite frankly I think that cultural trends/norms CAN change, and as such traditional explanations are almost entirely beside the point.

edited 15th Oct '12 3:32:41 PM by Karmakin

@Iaculus: Honestly, I don't think it's even that complicated. I think extroverts are generally favored simply because they're more likely to be noticed.

I've been threatened, insulted and yelled at by random strangers for things ranging from my haircut to my clothing, by both men and women. I live in a rough part of town, though. No "cat calls," but harassment is harassment, and it happens to men too.

edited 16th Oct '12 5:31:48 AM by Talby

In my experience, women "catcall" all the damn time. Guys are just expected to take it as a compliment.

"Nice abs, beefcake" = compliment. "Nice rack, sweetheart" = creepy.

Anectode: while I was in Germany, I was waiting in a subway station when two women probably in their late twenties/early thirties walked by me. One called out "Hee Hübscher" ("Hey handsome"). Completely offhand. This was late at night and the subway station wasn't heavily traveled, so it was pretty empty, so I knew they could only have been talking to me. I was 16 years old at the time.

I was equal parts flattered and creeped out. Something tells me, though, that a girl my age wouldn't have been flattered at all, or been expected to be.

edited 16th Oct '12 6:27:23 PM by somerandomdude

For better or worse, women and men tend to treat their body images differently, speaking in generalities. On an individual level, any person can react in any manner.