MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
No, the other one.
She is interested. That's part of the premise. "But if two guys are interested in the same girl, and she is interested in both enough to date, then they are in competition."
Check out my fanfiction!
A lot of women's experience with men trying to to get their attention tends to involve the men continuing to try and get our attention long after we've decided we aren't interested in giving it to them. As a result, a lot of us are wary of any sort of competition between men because most of the time they don't seem to realise that there isn't even a contest as far as we are concerned.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Mad Scientist Wannabe
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's not what he said in the hypothetical scenario he gave.
That just assumes that she'll be interested in his peacock mentality towards dating.
Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
No, the other one.
If you're going to say he didn't say what he said that I quoted from what you quoted from him, then this is pointless. I'm out.
Check out my fanfiction!
Mad Scientist Wannabe
Guess what, it doesn't matter if she's interested or not, women don't want the guy who'll treat her as something to be competed over. Most women actually DON'T like being objectified like that.
Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
Jupiterian Local
Seppaku, Child Marriage, and Romeo and Juliet are cultural icons too.
That doesn't mean we can't try and kill it with fire.
Especially since men take that as, "No is just a Yes waiting to happen" and all the horrible things it has inspired.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Mad Scientist Wannabe
And that doesn't sound WRONG to you?
Jupiterian Local
Yes, it does. That was my point.
edited 24th Nov '14 7:07:02 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Like this, but brown.
Oh, but I missed this place.
"Like some animal's mating display" is funny to me. I honestly don't get your issue with this.
Nobody is treating anybody like some sort of trophy. A guy sees someone he's interested in - how the hell is he supposed to find out whether she's interested in him if he doesn't make himself stand out to her to the point where he's not just one of an endless flow of guys? Doing this recognizes that as a part of this young lady's life, she's probably inundated with requests for her attention. He would like to find out if she wants to spend time with him. But wait, someone answered what he's supposed to do.
Yeah that works if you have a lot that's superficially attractive about yourself, I imagine. If you aren't conventionally attractive, but you think that you're funny, or whatever, you're probably going to want to let her know somehow before she makes a decision about whether to spend anytime with you, right? Because if all she has to go on is your looks when deciding to tell you whether "she's in the great dating game" or not, that's all she can base her decision on. That may or may not be what you want.
Perhaps more importantly, however, is that I never go up to someone that I want to be friends with and ask, "are you looking for a friend?" This would be awkward. The two long-term girlfriends I've had, as well as the others that I've dated for short periods all evolved naturally. They either started off physically attracted to me, or I "showed off" my more attractive qualities - which was less of an "animalistic display" and more of a, "here are the cool things I'm interested in and the cool things I'm doing with my life, and, by the way, I can be wicked sarcastic at completely inappropriate times." And yeah, when I was doing that, I damn well hoped that other guys didn't have more interesting things to say to her. Guess what? Doing that, instead of awkwardly starting off by forcing her to make an immediate decision based on nothing about you other than your physical appearance, seems like a much better bet than just hoping every girl I find attractive finds me attractive.
Ok, if you still think this is ignoring her feelings on the subject, let me know. I do actually care about the feelings of people around me; I am just flabbergasted as to how this is treating someone like a "prize."
Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Hey, let's not diss Romeo and Juliet here. The whole story was about two dumb teenagers doing something deeply inadvisable. 'These violent loves have violent ends', remember?
What's precedent ever done for us?
Mad Scientist Wannabe
You wanna know my issue? Guys who seem to think that any woman who looks their way is automatically attracted to them, that if she's talking to some other guy, he's competition you have to upstage, and assume that she's even interested in you because you are a man. That's my issue.
How do you know she's interested in you? How do you know she even WANTS your attention?
edited 24th Nov '14 7:39:07 PM by maxwellelvis
Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
Right. Misplaced modern interpretations of Romeo And Juliet are largely to blame, not the play itself. It's agreed upon by nearly all scholars that Shakespeare was illustrating the pettiness, recklessness and self-destructive behavior of love and romance through the play. But like a lot of Jane Austen's works, it was misunderstood as a glorification of sacrifice in the name of love.
edited 24th Nov '14 7:42:07 PM by Aprilla
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Well, it's kind of nuanced. On the one hand, Romeo and Juliet are dumb teenagers doing dumb things, and on the other, that teenage impulsiveness allows them to look past the festering feud that's tearing Verona apart. It's an examination of youthful passion of all varieties, illustrating both its beauty and its ugliness.
What's precedent ever done for us?
A procrastination in of itself
Thing is even if you're not 'competing' against other guys you're still 'competing' against the alternative of her simply not deciding to go out with you.
It's just silly and a waste of energy to treat it like a competition. In a competition one person loses and another wins, in a competition there is a prize. If you're competing with anything when it comes to getting a date with someone it's yourself, you're competing with your own personal flaws and faults that prevent you being the best person you can be.
What I'd guess often occurs when two guys compete for a girl is that she (rightly) concludes that they are both idiots and that she's better of not dating either of them (assuming she's even looking for a relationship in the first place).
Plus it's always struck me as both arrogant and assholeish to conclude that she should chose to date you. If I like a girl enough to want to go out with her than I care about her as a person, as such I value her happiness and would like her to date whoever she will be happiest dating. Now I think I'm a pretty swell guy, but push come to shove she knows best what will make her happy (and if she doesn't than I'm out, I don't need a project person for a partner) as such it's not about me 'competing' with some other guy.
It's about me laying out who I am and letting her decide if she thinks I'm the kind of person she'd like to date. If I'm not that's not because I've 'failed' in some way, it's because I don't fit the mould she's looking for, and that's okay. I'm not everyone's romantic cup of tea and I don't expect to be.
edited 24th Nov '14 7:53:20 PM by SilasW
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Like this, but brown.
Yes, that's why I'm engaged in a civilized conversation in this forum. To hear people's issues.
No, in fact, the desire to make yourself more attractive to her suggests that you think that she's not automatically attracted to you. If you thought she was automatically attracted, you'd go with Euodiachloris's post
's suggestion and simply ask her the first time you opened your mouth.
I don't know about "upstaging" but I do think that if you're interested in a girl and would like for her to be interested in spending time with you, you should probably make your good qualities apparent. Make a funny joke or do whatever. Maybe the other guy isn't interested; maybe she's not interested in him, but if you are interested in her and lack the ability to read minds, it's not a terrible assumption to make that, "hey if he's putting his best foot forward, I probably should too."
Again, nobody is assuming interest. I think the worst thing that they could be accused of is wanting to create interest.
You don't. That's the whole point: to present yourself in such a manner to maximize the chance of that happening.
You don't. And unless you gain mind reading abilities you probably could never know. From that, I can't glean any way any man should approach any woman ever. Because he could never know that she wants his attention.
If you're a guy who approaches girls, chances are you will eventually (and probably sooner rather than later) approach someone who did not want your attention. Learning to gracefully exit the situation is a skill, and not a fun one to learn, but a necessary one. But normal guys do just that. They leave if they find out she doesn't want his attention. They just don't have the ability to divine that information before interacting with her.
Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Cleric of Banjo
@laculus- Good description.
It's a bit of a pet peeve for me when people comment to the effect that Romeo and Juliet was satirizing stupid teenagers. I understand that people are coming from that attitude in reaction against the play being misinterpreted as an ideal love story. However, it's important to note that Shakespeare's source for the play explicitly stated the moral as being that children shouldn't disobey their parents. Shakespeare notably does not offer that moral. Quite the opposite- the Pnduction to the play blames Romeo and Juliet's death on their families' pointless feud.
edited 24th Nov '14 7:52:41 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
@laculus: This is true, but many people don't fully digest the more cynical aspects of the play. Brings back memories of grad school where we had to spend a lot of time dispelling common misconceptions about the history, themes and characterizations of the play.
I bring this up because it harkens toward many preconceived notions men today have about doing "whatever it takes" to win your true love, even if the methods for doing so are fickle, misplaced or even dangerous. Many modern revenge films aimed at men encourage maiming and killing as many people as possible to avenge or rescue the woman you love.
edited 24th Nov '14 7:52:01 PM by Aprilla
Mad Scientist Wannabe
So if you DON'T even know if she's attracted, the HELL are you doing going up to her to scope it out? She could call out harassment and be well within her rights to do so.
And if the other guy wasn't trying to pick her up, and you come in and try to, you're the asshole in this situation, not him.
"maximize interest" Do you realize how you sound? You sound like a jerk utterly convinced of his own sexual prowess. If you didn't intend to sound like that, then find a better wording.
edited 24th Nov '14 7:54:42 PM by maxwellelvis
Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
A procrastination in of itself
Here's the thing, the implication of this sentence (which I invite you to correct if it's wrong) is that you're not putting your best foot forward already.
As a matter of course I put my best foot forward with anyone I plan to have any kind of long term connection with, romantic or otherwise. You should be being the best you anyway, regardless of any 'competition', because you want to show of the best/truest you so that she can decide if she thinks you would be a good romantic partner.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Like this, but brown.
Um...what exactly is the alternative? Get a fortune teller to let you know beforehand? I honestly don't know what you expect in this situation. I honestly don't know why you are upset about this.
Having actually studied the theory and law of harassment at law school, I'd have to say, no, no she wouldn't. She would be committing slander by saying I harassed her. Approaching someone and having a conversation with them to determine whether or not they are interested is not harassment. If she asks you to leave and you don't, that's a different story.
I don't think anyone is an asshole in this situation. If he wasn't trying to pick her up, and you signal your interest and interesting qualities to the lady involved, I don't understand how you're an asshole. I don't understand how he would be an asshole even if he was trying to pick her up. I don't get why anyone has to be an asshole in a situation of attempting to initiate a romantic relationship.
What I actually said was maximizing the chance that she'll be interested. You know, so that the encounter won't be awkward for both of you? Which is something that would matter to you if you cared about her feelings on the subject.
I really have no idea where my sexual prowess comes into this, and it's none of your business how I feel about it. I didn't bring it up or suggest anything about it or even sex in general. I don't understand what wording gave you any indication about how I felt about my sexual abilities. I wasn't discussing them. I wasn't discussing anything about them. I was discussing having a conversation with someone and gauging their interest in learning more about each other. I won't change my wording on the say-so of someone who picked that up out of thin air.
Thanks for approaching this like you're not angry at me for my opinions.
I'll give you an example. One night, at the end of my shift waiting tables, I was helping a new girl figure out what she was supposed to do at the end of shift. I thought she was cute, and considered the possibility of dating her. I was tired though, and I figured I'd just bring it up tomorrow when I was in better form. Another guy started talking to her while we were all cleaning, and he didn't sound exhausted like I was or anything, and was saying some genuinely interesting things. I went to the bathroom, rubbed some cold water on my face and smiled for a minute as I got the gunk out from under my fingers, and went back out and when there was an opening in the conversation I joined in, and certainly did a better job of being relaxed and funny and interesting than I otherwise would have.
No, I don't think we always have our best foot forward, it's exhausting (working as a waiter you kind of have to be "on" for hours at a time to make decent tips), and sometimes, "competition" can push us to.
edited 24th Nov '14 8:19:57 PM by Vericrat
Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Mad Scientist Wannabe
The way I see it, if you're not sure if a woman's interested, don't take the chance. Leave her be, and go about your business like you never saw her. That will show much more respect for women
You're the asshole because you're trying to pick her up when she might already be with her boyfriend, or that might be a family member, or a friend. Point is, there's about a 90% chance that your presence is unwelcome.
And if she qualifies you just walking up uninvited as such?
And if she isn't interested in the guy who just came up to her to see if she's into him?
edited 24th Nov '14 8:35:48 PM by maxwellelvis
Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
Do you apply the same standards to women who are attracted to men and want to approach them?
Like this, but brown.
Since no guy could ever be sure ever then no guy would ever be able to approach any girl ever. How would men enter into relationships?
-brief conversation about mutual interests-
"Hey, do you want to grab dinner Friday?"
"Oh, no, sorry Bobby here is my boyfriend."
"Yeah, I'm her boyfriend."
"Oh, my mistake. Well, it was really nice getting to know you regardless, and I'm going to go ahead and head out."
Yeah. Real asshole.
Great, but that will basically always be true, right? At this point all I can see is advocating that no guy ever approach a girl, and I don't think that's viable or even necessary.
The same thing as if she qualifies me breathing within 27 feet of her as harassment. It doesn't matter. You don't get to make up your own definition of harassment and apply it. If a girl tells me, "Hey, being approached makes me feel uncomfortable," I say, "Oh, I'm terribly sorry, I'll leave," and then leave.
If I walk up to a girl who's wearing a Dragon Age: Inquisition t-shirt, and I walk up and say, "I have been dying to play that game all week, is it any good?" and she yells out loud (because that's her personal definition of harassment) that I'm harassing her, I'll assess my legal options in light of any damages (e.g. suing her for slander if anything comes of the shouting).
EDITED to respond to edit.
Then she says so and the guy terminates the encounter with something similar to, "Apologies, miss," and walks away.
edited 24th Nov '14 8:43:34 PM by Vericrat
Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Exactly, and honestly, no man can win in a situation like that. It's stupid and crass which will never show you in your best light. There is a difference between making yourself available and enjoying a girl's company and then trying to get her to "Pick me! Pick me! Not him!"
This isn't a contest. This isn't a competition. This isn't a race. These things have prizes and if the relationship is the end goal, then the girl has just been turned into a commodity, a prize. It's not that hard to put together.
Again, why should a guy feel such a loss over rejection that his very manhood or being is being called into question? That's bullshit.
Rejection sucks. I've been there. I've also dated my fair of crazy bitches too, male and female enough to know that it's not worth it. And I don't like how this cycle of expectations has turned into a cycle of entitlement to men. It's toxic to both genders and honestly as a woman, I would like to feel safer in rejecting a man just like I would like my son to know that while it's okay to be bummed if the girl in the back of class doesn't want to get ice cream with you, his life isn't over.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur