Analytic Thought: Consequences for Religious Belief

Well, I'm not telling how you should describe your view of world; I am saying how, in my worldview, your worldview looks like. That's different.

I have no reason to expect you to talk about God rather than the universe or its laws or whatever; and if I demanded it, you'd be perfectly within your rights to tell me to take a hike.

Still, once you have a "?" in your model, you can start reasoning about "?". I think that you can infer a few things about it, even though only by analogy; but I must admit, I am more than a little out of my depth here.

But the example with evolution and abiogenesis is entirely different. Abiogenesis can be expected to have an explanation, and both of us are — I think — confident than an answer will be eventually found; but for the "?", no complete answer is possible, even in principle. If you introduced an answer "X", then your model would change to

? -> X -> mathematics and the laws of nature-> the universe

where we did not move ? at all; rather, we put something more "in the middle", so to say.

edited 3rd May '12 11:29:43 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

That's true, yes. Some kind of framework has to be assumed, and there's an element of mystery about it. That you attach some traits to it that prompt you to call it "God" is understandable, though I don't agree with it (as I don't assume those traits.)

I'm sorry if I seemed annoyed; there were some distractions IRL, so I was unable to concentrate on my post, especially the tone. I see now that you were describing what my model looks like to you rather than shoehorning "God" into my model.

I'll start posting again when I'm alone so I won't be distracted all the time.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

No, you did not seem annoyed in the least. You were perfectly civil, as usual — and very critical but in an interesting way, as usual.

One thing I must emphasize here, however, is that I am not a trained theologian, and I am talking about things — like the Thomistic conception of God — that I barely understand myself. I'm seriously out of my depth here, and it is well possible that much of what I said is rather incorrect.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Wait ,what's the topic again?

Honestly, the topic has been concluded for a while- the answer is "analytical thought does not hamper faith if that faith meets certain conditions."

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-

My own concern is that a lot of religious beliefs tend to require more evidence to disprove than comparable statements. It's more about intellectual inconsistency than being analytically wrong, per say.

That's what I think, though there's been objections in the thread.

A statement is either

1. Accepted by faith as an axiom, to be the starting point.

2. Constructed from those axioms.

And analysis deals with the latter. And people do that. Religious not left out of that.

Now using Trivialis handle.

The Mathematical universe hypothesis is really troublesome when you try to find a simple mathematical model that enables the emergence of the universe, because the simplest model is to just assume the power set of all particle configurations with no intrinsic laws at all.

People in "Universe A" argue about what is correct, except in fact there are an uncountable number of states that are identical up to Universe A until the present moment, until diverging in ways that everybody can claim full correctness somewhere.

It's the simplest possible physics, but I can't see anyone finding it satisfying.

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?

42

How do you define "simplest", anyway? I guess that you could use Kolmogorov complexity, perhaps, but then you are assuming that the universe is not only mathematically non-contradictory but also computable.

That model has simple laws, but it is huge..

edited 3rd May '12 12:53:15 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Carc become panentheistic and believe in an All. IT'S FUN.

Because no matter what I do that belief is in my bones.

But srsly all the cool people are panentheistic.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I'm semi-pantheistic I guess. Collective Unconsciousness usually.

That or a physicalist. It comes and goes. I'm not sure I see the distinction TBH

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Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

But do you believe that the universe is God's liver?!

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

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Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

My main objection to panentheism is that it would imply that I am part of God. Now, I don't have direct experience of the rest of the universe; but I know enough about myself to be rather confident that I am no part of any God worth worshiping

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Why the hell should we worship a pantheistic god?

I don't believe that the universe is actually the All's liver. Merely that is how I choose to visualize it since I believe the universe exist within the All. We're all created from it out of bits of it and exist in a cycle of recreation of the same bits. So a rock is God as are you. Because everything that exists is God as it is made of God and an aspect of God. There's also whatever is beyond the universe. What that is I don't know. I just dub it all Nibbana.

And I like to picture this set up as us being the All's liver.

^I don't worship the All. I merely believe in it. The belief has always been there and I can't reason myself out of it for whatever reason. It is deep within me and refuses to leave.

I also believe in other beings I dub gods. No you shouldn't worship them either. They're Klingons and frat boys with super powers. Why the hell would you worship those?

edited 3rd May '12 1:12:55 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Nibanna, Mu, it's all good.

So you can't CHOOSE not to believe in it? <METATHREAD ARGUMENT WOOO!>

Thank you for your input ;D

edited 3rd May '12 1:13:09 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

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Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I can't it seems. If I could I wouldn't maybe. I don't find it particularly important. It's just kind of...there.

I do have a god I worship. Guanyin is a very specific exception however.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

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Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Thank you for your input Aon, your comment has become useful in another thread I'm in :P

Sure thing, Tomu.

Guanyin? Require worship? Hell no. She doesn't require anything. She's just a selfless mother figure who goes out helping living beings because it's the right to do. Even becoming a martyr and taking on death hundreds of times. And still not giving up on the people who killed her.

I worship her because I feel that she expresses most clearly what I wish to be. Someone strong and who helps everyone. In a way that actually works. I seek to be more like her and live up to her example. To do as I feel would make her proud. Occasionally I pray to her for assistance because things are very rough. These times have been very few and far between because I don't feel it's right. They've been times of "I think I'm going to kill myself. Like seriously I have this knife..." levels of bad. So sort of like asking Mom for a hug.

She does not give help because you worship. She gives help because that's what she does and because it is Right. You could hate her and the very ground she walks on and she would still help you. You could set her house on fire and order her to be executed and she would still help you. Because it is Dhamma.

edited 3rd May '12 1:22:57 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
Stay on topic, please.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.