LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Christians aren't a unified block.

I've been lucky with Fundies too. They just give me little booklets and say things or hold signs and leave me be. I've never been physically manhandled by them and someone telling me "GOD HATES FAGS" isn't terribly threatening to me personally.

We must all move to California.

^Also this. Even sects aren't even blocks and organizations. They're multiple ones. Same with other religions. Buddhism has three branches. One of which is Theravada. Which isn't a single organization. Thailand has the Thai Council of Bhikkhu which damn sure isn't what Burma has.

edited 17th Apr '12 8:25:43 PM by Aondeug

No, they're not, but by supporting their fundies directly or indirectly they effectively become one solid anti-LGBT block.

Or Minnesota.

Hmmmmmm.......

edited 17th Apr '12 8:29:18 PM by inane242

California has more interesting terrain then Minnesota.

Also, no word games, seriously. All it's gonna do is piss me off.

It's possible for something to not actually be something, but in practice it functions like the something. In this case, while they're NOT a unified block, by not being against the fundies and standing by passively they present a unified block behind the fundies.

edited 17th Apr '12 8:32:06 PM by Vehudur

Last time I checked, pointing out generalizations wasn't called "word games".

Forgive me, I am used to formal debate where you focus on someone's logic while you attack their points.

Sorry, I forgot that I was arguing in circles on the Internet.

So if I may, you contradicted yourself there. Pick, or explain.

Ah, but many do.

edited 17th Apr '12 8:33:59 PM by inane242

It is very important to make a distinction between religious people in general, and religious fanatics. It is very important to make a distinction between fundamentalists and mainstream believers. For instance, most Christians don't believe that Adam and Eve really existed; even the Catholic church doesn't claim that Genesis is literally true anymore. (The Catholic church accepts evolution.) Still fundamentalist, literalist movements do believe Genesis word to word, contradictions and all.

Similarly, there are radical fundamentalists churches and radical, violent movements within branches of Christianity that advocate or carry out violence.

To conclude from that evidence that a majority of Christians or Catholics want to advocate or carry out or even condone violence is very contrary to polite discussion and, equally importantly, to intellectual honesty.

I am very afraid of the threat that LGBT rights and LGBT people are facing from fundamentalists and extremists and to a large extent even mainstream religious movements in the US, just as I'm concerned for women's equal rights and the rights of atheists. But I would not claim that most Christians are out to kill atheists, any more than I'd claim that (for instance) most Communists are out to kill Christians. It's simply not true, even if there are historical instances of it and even if there are groups doing it now.

edited 17th Apr '12 8:35:45 PM by BestOf

You're a good man, Best Of. Even if you don't believe in Santa like I do.

You don't get it. You're completely missing the point. You have this entire part of the discussion. The problem is not the people who ARE speaking out, the problem is the majority who is not.

Yes, we're well aware that christians are not a united block, they're not even close.

We're aware one of these subsections is very anti-LGBT and very vocal about it, sometimes even taking it to its logical extreme.

The non-fundie christians are, as christians, members of the same group of organizations as the fundies, this includes donating to them and showing up for church, ext.

Because they in the vast majority stand by passively, they are lending their support by mass of numbers to the fundies.

This is a very serous problem.

Yes, some of them are vocal against this. It's a small minority and regardless it's not nearly enough, and it's hardly enough to make any difference at all.

I'm aware of the differences between the religious groups and have even stressed this, but this has been ignored repeatedly because no one wants to hear the hard truth of the fact that by being part of a group you are supporting either directly or indirectly all facets of it unless you are speaking out against it.

I don't think they'd advocate it. I do think they'd stand by passively and let it happen, which is just as serious of a problem.

We need more santas in this world.

edited 17th Apr '12 8:44:02 PM by Vehudur

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmnope.

Pretty much, no, scratch that, almost all all the Christians I know are very supportive of LGBT rights. Volunteering, observing the day of silence, I have a long and amusing anecdote about the Episcopal church's float at the St.Paul Pride Parade....

edited 17th Apr '12 8:48:15 PM by inane242

Compare the number of christians to the number of people speaking out. You will find the first vastly larger then the second. If you want to be really generous, you can judge it by how people vote on these things... Which with some local variances will get you something like 50/50.

The plural of your anecdote is not fact.

edited 17th Apr '12 8:54:05 PM by Vehudur

Well, I do not speak out on a regular basis on gay rights.

A I complicit in the suppression of myself?

No. This is not true. For one thing, totally different denominations means separate money. Any money I give to a collection in a Catholic church (for which they usually tell you what it's for) is not going to magically find its way into the pockets of burn-the-fags crusaders of a different denomination.

And why should I stop believing in what I want and worshipping how I want, just because some people totally independent of me worship in a similar way? If you are an atheist, and some other atheists do something bad, are you suddenly obliged to find a different religion because someone who believes the same stuff as you do did bad things?

edited 17th Apr '12 8:54:16 PM by LoniJay

I don't agree that most Christians want to kill homosexuals. Or commit violence against them. Or want them to be miserable. Most people at least want to be good people, whether they live up to it or not.

On the other hand: If you voluntarily belong to an organization (whether it's as small as a neighborhood church or as large as the Catholic institution), and that organization works to ostracize, belittle, or deny basic human rights to another human being or group of human beings, you have three options: Condone it, fight to change it, or leave the organization.

If everyone, or a majority of the people those institutions took options 2 or 3, those institutions would either no longer exist, or would change. The fact that neither has occurred lends to the belief that these organizations are composed of people who took option 1.

I'll tell you something: I don't have a real option about being a citizen of the United States (emigration for someone of my age, income, and expertise is not feasible). Because of my financial situation (and the fact that I'm in the middle of obtaining my education), I can't leave Tennessee either. Yet I feel that I am a member of the organizations "Government of the state of Tennessee" and "Government of the United States of America." Every time there's an opportunity, I argue for gay rights. I vote for politicians that are pro-gay rights or the least anti-gay rights politician for a specific position. I am not voluntarily a member of either organization, but I can't in good conscience do otherwise, because then I'd feel like I was helping oppress homosexuals.

I'm not special. Yet those who are a part of the majority of churches that do look down on homosexuality can't/won't do that? THAT is why Christianity as a whole has a reputation for being bigoted against gays.

Well I'm sure we can all agree that Christian churches that aren't anti-gay should definitely be doing more to protect the rights of gay people.

I'm not convinced, though, that a majority of them would passively stand by if mass murders or the like started occurring - and neither am I convinced that there's a real danger, at least in the West, of very large waves of violence against gay people.

x4 I don't believe you and I don't trust that your church is going to do what it says it's going to do.

x5

Do you speak out against it in the realm of ever? If so, there's no problem. More importantly, would you vote for a theoretical constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage? If you would vote against such a measure, there's also no problem.

x3

This. Why don't people just get this? By being part of these organizations and not speaking out against it you're supporting everything they do, good and bad.

x2

Considering people have been known to ignore cries of bloody murder from outside their apartment building, I don't believe they'd lift a finger to stop any violence.

Is there a point to this post?

edited 17th Apr '12 9:02:29 PM by Vehudur

If you are unwilling to even bother arguing, why are you here?

So, if simply not being in favor of banning gay marriage puts me in the clear...

Ok, 76% of the US population is Christian. More than 50% of the US population now supports gay marriage. Assuming as little overlap as possible between Christians and those who support gay marriage , what is the smallest possible percentage of Christians who support gay marriage, and are, by your logic, in the clear?

Derp, percentage signs in the wrong spot.

edited 17th Apr '12 9:19:38 PM by inane242

I have no trust in anecdotes for reasons that should be obvious.

In order for your numbers to be relevant to this they would need to be of christians only. But I'll play along. Per your scenario, it would STILL be the majority of christians being anti-LGBT or not vocal enough to care.

Even if it's a 50-50 split (which I seriously doubt) it doesn't end up mattering anyways if they don't get up and vote when the time comes anyways. Unfortunately the fundies seem better at actually getting their people to vote anyways.

edited 17th Apr '12 9:30:05 PM by Vehudur

But it won't be just Christians...

And your average Joe doesn't vote on Constitutional amendments anyways!

And that +50% is presumably going to keep growing, so even if less than 50% of Christians don't support gay marriage, it won't matter.

edited 17th Apr '12 9:39:17 PM by inane242

Well, your average Joe doesn't vote, so truthfully we should only be looking at voters in regards to a theoretical amendment anyways. We hope public opinion continues to shift in favor of it, but none of us can see the future. My crystal ball is broken.

We'd need a large sample of just christians to find out their average views on it, because reality likes to throw curveballs at you. Maybe if it was something even approaching 50% I could give them the benefit of a doubt, but as of now I will continue to assume the worst for your average christian based off of their history.

Eh? Don't believe me about what? You think I'm not Christian? That I don't believe in gay rights? That all churches are somehow all connected in a massive conspiracy and I'm lying to you about it?

edited 17th Apr '12 10:51:51 PM by LoniJay

sigh@ obvious straw man.

I just don't believe your anecdote that your church is doing what you think it's doing.

ITT: People randomly throw around the phrase "Straw Man"