LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Well, yes, I have. I've never shied away from saying I believe homosexual relationships are a sin, and that those who are engaging them are wrong to do it.

If you mean, "Starship, you never singled me out and told me I'm wrong/a sinner/going to hell," then yes, you're correct.

Kay, like me, you have to make your own choices in life, as you'll have to answer to your Creator for them. It's not my job to tell you or your girlfriend how to do business.

It's my job to be fair to my country, my fellow man, and my God. It's my job to make sure the cowards who'd harm you and your girlfriend are stopped. It's my job to be as good and decent to you as you've been to me.

I've already said the problem then is with the action, not the thought that prompted it. Else we mustn't say anybody's wrong ever. That can't happen.

edited 24th Oct '12 1:44:52 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

@ Robotnik: That doesn't seem to be the case. People generally are not just attracted to their own family members. They're just easy prey.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Then go the fullest and allow them to marry. You're only fighting some of the battle, but not all.

You're still harmful if you continue to display any homophobic tones, which includes not giving them full rights. Do you understand that?

Also, I wrote a big reply, man...

Quest 64 thread

Now, forgivenss of sins doesn't mean we now stop calling something a sin so as to not offend people. That is not love.

You're right. Love is treating people like criminals for having feelings you don't understand. No, wait, that's not love either...

Who exactly is advocating treating homosexuals like criminals here?

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Sins are crimes against God, so it would be Starship treating gays as criminals.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

@Irene, Morg - I do want to see gays be allowed to marry, although I would never encourage gays to be married.

I'd never encourage anyone to get a divorce, but I wouldn't divorcees criminalized. If that happened I'd be criminalizing my friends, my family, the people who maintain the roads I travel and the buildings I live in work in, the people who die that I might live.

It's the exact same thing with criminalizing homosexuality. The Bible says that if I criminalize good and decent people who's only crime is being a sinner, then the Bible states the first person to be sentenced MUST be ME.

edited 24th Oct '12 1:53:44 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

Inb4 he points out that he isn't. EDIT: NOPE! Too slow!

We've been down this road before.

edited 24th Oct '12 1:50:57 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

That's a very... legalistic... way of putting it. I would rather say that sins are acts that make you less than you could be, that bring you further away from the Awesome You that God had in mind when He created you.

Still, if you want to put it that way, you might as well say that we are treating, let's say, people who drink too much like criminals. After all, drunkenness is definitely a sin.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

It doesn't nearly bother me as much as it used to anyway. I can respect Starship's beliefs a bit, since I don't think of them as particulary harmful.

And I'm used to hearing homosexuality called a sin anyway. My girlfriend often laments that she would be without sin if it wasn't for me. Jokingly? :P

edited 24th Oct '12 1:54:40 PM by kay4today

Homosexuals don't need your encouragement, Max, or your approval.

Then why does he feel the need to say he wouldn't encourage gays to get married?

edited 24th Oct '12 2:01:17 PM by Morgikit

Strange, I've said the same thing about my girlfriends!

No but seriously, this is why I can't subscribe to this "Sentence the gays to hard time" shit. They're people, like me. Homosexuals are people, in my mind, giving in to a stronge urge that they shouldn't.

As Jesus would say if he were here "Let he who's never slept with anyone he shouldn't have cast the first stone." (Crickets) "Thought so."

edited 24th Oct '12 2:01:16 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

I don't think he said that...?

You are such a sinner!

edited 24th Oct '12 1:58:21 PM by kay4today

Carc, you do realize that drinking too much will kill you. Which means you're harming someone. Yourself. I'd call that a Sin as a Criminal act in that case too. We're expected to respect our bodies too. There is a reason why Suicide is treated as shameful.

@Starship: No, the thoughts are bad too. They always lead to discrimination. You are believing them to be criminals against Gods. If you think acting alone is a problem, you're wrong. The belief itself breeds hatred. The acts are deplorable, but they started with beliefs. Remove the beliefs, you remove the problems.

I would rather not be secretly hated and constantly lied to because someone believes something that horrific. Beliefs are extremely harmful too. Acts are harmful as well. They're a package deal.

Quest 64 thread

Mary: *smack*
Jesus: Mooom! I was not talking to you!

Yeah, which is part of why I do believe that drinking too much is a sin and I do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. I was just pointing out that the "sin = should be a crime" idea does not hold.

edited 24th Oct '12 2:00:40 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

There's another angle not explorer here: It's that a god that puts such arbitrary rule as "sex between dudes is an abomination to me" is NOT the omnibenevolent, omniloving God the NT speaks of.

That's Out of Character for him.

Note: Of course, there's the matter of "it was for the greater good at the time because bad hygiene etc." but then it's out-of-character not to rescind it now that hygiene has improved.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

Random people in the crowd: "Mom? But whu...?"

edited 24th Oct '12 2:00:24 PM by kay4today

So every Christian who believes sex outside of marriage is wrong secretly hates and discriminates against everyone who's had sex outside of marriage? Those Christians who think it's wrong to drink hate and discriminate against those who do drink, even in moderation? Etc.? I find that hard to believe.

edited 24th Oct '12 2:03:58 PM by Nocturna

With all due respect, you might not need my encouragement. If you don't, good for you.

But I've seen what lack of encouragement has done to others. They are children homeless, bleeding, and dead, because nobody encouraged them. So when horrific shit like that goes down, I'm less than concerned with your personal opinion of my efforts; I have a duty to fulfill. And I will.

I honestly couldn't have said it better myself.

I mean, that unlike Irene's idea, I'll never relinquish the right to agree with the Bible in calling someting sinful. Nor will I subscribe to this already debunked False Dichotomy that disapproval = clandestine hatred.

I know many in the gay rights lobby would very much like to see that happen. Some people might go along with it; I'm not one of them.

edited 24th Oct '12 2:06:18 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

Killing people over hygiene is about as stupid as killing people over sex anyway.

Encouragement to get married is what I meant!

edited 24th Oct '12 2:10:13 PM by Morgikit

That's what is happening, Nocturna. When you belief something is wrong, you will unintentionally or intentionally discriminate against them sooner or later. That's a fact.

Because people will bottle it up inside until it explodes.

Likewise, I'd like to note Adultery isn't always treated as a Sin. I believe it is, mind you, and it's one that is among multiple cultures(unlike Homosexuality being a Sin, to note), and the constant belief it's wrong leads to actions taken against it. Cheating is not met kindly in just about every situation outside of porn.

Beliefs are just as harmful as actions, especially when they're particularly harmful beliefs.

Quest 64 thread

No, it's that it's Christians campaigning against letting same-sex couples marry because "it's a sin", but not campaigning against the same rights for other groups of sinners. After all, if sex before marriage is a sin, why aren't they campaigning to outlaw marriage among fornicators?

Likewise, murder and stealing are supposed to be sins, yet nobody's campaigning to keep murderers and thieves from getting married. Why single out this one group?

Or how about nonbelievers? Are there any Christians out there campaigning to outlaw marriage among atheists, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or tree-worshipping Druids?

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

@Morgi

I can't speak for everyone, but I do like getting some approval and encouragement when it comes to things like that.

So... I'd say Starship should continue with uh... fulfilling his duty, I guess. He has my approval, even though he doesn't need it. xD

edited 24th Oct '12 2:09:01 PM by kay4today

"Jesus Harrison Christ! I raised you better than that!"

@Maxima: Out of curiosity, do you acknowledge the threat beliefs can pose in the form of privilege and framing effects?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

This is a bit of a false comparison: murdering people is definitely a sin, but murderers marrying are not committing a further sin by marrying.

Still, I can certainly agree that even if gay sex were a sin (and that's something I disagree with anyway, but that's not the point), this alone would not justify banning civil gay marriage.

edited 24th Oct '12 2:13:04 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.