Manga/Dragon Ball

Yeah, I think people really overstate how little Goku cares about things as long as he gets a good fight.

I remember watching a TFS playthrough and when they were complaining about Goku not trying to talk Omniking out of destroying the universes (despite suggesting it himself earlier and Whis advising him against it), one of them, Grant I think, goes "I'd be more in character for Goku to suggest that all of the universes have to participate. And I find myself thinking "No, he wouldn't do that, because he actually understands what's at stake".

Somethings might go south because Goku doesn't think things through or has the wrong impression of things, but when he clearly understands what "universes will be destroyed" means, I don't see how anyone actually thinks he'd try and get more people involved against their wills.

edited 27th Apr '17 11:05:19 PM by LSBK

The simple answer is this: the TFS gang has been working on their series for so long that they've basically kind of been sucked in to perceiving that the exaggerated-for-humor characterizations of their fanwork are just as good as official characterization. And Grant's been hanging around them so long that he just kind of absorbed it by osmosis.

Makes me worried on how their gonna deal with the inevitable conclusion of the Cell Saga. I'm not sure if Chi-Chi asking for a divorce at the end of the Broly movie is supposed to be funny or not.

I mean its fun ripping on Goku from time to time but I honestly think its going too far. Its not really funny anymore, its just sad.

Here's a good question: Switch Super Vegeta with Goku in his battle with Semi-Perfect Cell, is Goku as selfish (Dooming the world by letting Cell power-up) & cruel (letting Cell forcibly absorbed 18) as Vegeta all just for a good fight?

They've already said that that was just a joke that wasn't going to be carried over. I never got why people thought it would be anyway.

Oh, no, Goku wouldn't let that happen. Because he'd basically be letting Cell murder someone, and fuuuuuck that.

Yeah, Goku loves fighting but he's not going to let someone get hurt to facilitate it.

He's often thoughtless and reckless, but not actively malicious.

edited 27th Apr '17 11:19:51 PM by LSBK

Goku said it best himself in last week's episode: he doesn't really go out of his way to save the world; he's mostly just in it for the fun fights, but he also doesn't like to see innocent people getting hurt for no reason in front of him.

@Sharknado: Nah, that's all on Super portraying Goku as fightfightfightyfightfightguy and downplaying any empathy he has on the subject.

Well, I suppose they took Toriyama's comment about Goku seeing his family more as close friends than anything else (what was that exact quote again?) a bit too seriously.

Well, it wasn't a joke, but people may have, after being exposed to Dub Superman Goku for so long, taken it as Goku being even more selfish than Toriyama even intended.

In fairness to TFS, the way the Zamasu arc ended, and the lack of fucks Goku seemed to give about an entire timeline dying didn't really highlight Goku's empathy.

So I think Toei/Toriyama/whoever maybe isn't good at subtlety, nuance, or moderation.

I mean.

The thing is, the fact that the writers for Super are comfortable enough with the idea of Goku and Chichi's relationship being dysfunctional to even imply that they've never kissed on the mouth says a lot more to me than even the joke itself.

Like, that joke is probably the worst dig at Goku as a husband in any medium, and TFS weren't the ones that wrote it.

Even if the joke is that it's a misunderstanding, for it to work it has to be a misunderstanding believable enough for another character to make. Which at the very least says a lot about how Goku is perceived.

edited 28th Apr '17 2:11:44 PM by unnoun

I guess it isn't entirely unfounded but Goku's selfishness and childishness got exaggerated a ton in Super and it actually annoyed me when Goku was acting like more of an idiot than usual. Goku may not be sharpest character but he isn't that foolish or naive.

There have certainly been moments where I think Goku's portrayal is worse in Super than in the abridged version, basically.

Which isn't to say that either is "good" or "canon" or "accurate" or whatever. Just a note that if you want to point fingers in TFS's direction, it might be advised to remember what they're responding to. They don't actually have any power.

...And on another level, addressing Grant's suggestion, I have to admit as an audience member, it does feel like a bit of a clit tease to mention that there's 12 universes but that only 8 of them are going to compete. That's just dumb. So to an extent. In terms of "I'm watching a Dragon Ball tournament arc to get cool fight scenes" I would root for Goku trying to fulfill that promise for me.

Goku being a selfish dick in ways that make for a better, more fulfilling story to watch would at least be preferable to whatever the fuck the resolution to Zamasu was.

edited 28th Apr '17 2:46:32 PM by unnoun

I'd say that both TFS and Super are a product of the same thing. It's not like either version is entirely baseless but both seem to be working under the assumption that Goku (and others) are less nuanced than they really are.

But in Super's case that's apparently at least partially because Toriyama didn't like the anime "heroing up" Goku so that muddies the water a bit.

edited 28th Apr '17 2:35:30 PM by LSBK

How did they hero him up anyway?

What did Goku do that Toriyama didn't like?

Basically this.

Dear goodness, thas ugly.

Ugly as poop.

It was in both the Super Manga and Anime, so it can't even be called a Toei thing. You're point still stands however.

While the anime (and especially the English dub) has never denied that Goku loves a fight, it tended to put a lot more emphasis on the idea that Goku was fighting for others' sake, not for himself. It made him out to be a selfless hero who was doing what he did mostly for the people he was protecting, with the love of fighting being secondary to that. Even his habit of trying to let villains live (so he could fight them again later) was played as him being a kind and forgiving figure, which even if people find that intellectually stupid, most consider it a laudable trait to have.

While I do not think that Goku is completely selfish, and I do think he does want to protect those he cares about, I also think that Toriyama's vision of Goku is generally more focused on the fight and the challenge rather than on protecting others. That his fighting against evil foes also happens to keep his loved ones safe is a nice bonus.

edited 28th Apr '17 5:03:48 PM by DarkHunter

Although I'd add that even his desire to just fight strong guys regardless of their Character Alignment, even to the detriment of the Earth doesn't really come to light until Vegeta.

Piccolo was excused via not wanting to kill Kami as well, but there really was no good reason to keep Vegeta alive after everything he'd done, and Goku himself acknowledged that it was selfish to spare him just so he could fight against him again.

Him being more heroic happens in the original translation right?

Cause I can't imagine his issue lie in the original dubbing of the anime.

How much was about him wanting the thrill of the fight and how much was for protecting people went back and forth.

Starting from his arrival on Namek onward, it really did seem like any thrill of fighting came secondary to their chances of living. He still obviously enjoyed it, there's no doubting that, but it wasn't his main thing.

Edit: Like, he was terrified of fighting Super Buu and once Gohan was revived he suggested just bringing him to to Kai's world, to finish Kid Buu quickly.

edited 28th Apr '17 5:10:35 PM by LSBK

I mean, Goku wanted to pass on fighting Boo completely because he though it would be better in long term for someone else to beat him. And hell, he stayed dead so he wouldn't attract all those super strong bad guys. Those are not actions of someone who puts fighting for fun before everything else.

Sparing Vegeta wasn't so much about wanting to have a thrilling fight later, but more that he felt terrible that he wasn't able to beat such a powerful foe on his own.

I dunno. It's still selfish, but I think there's a bit more nuance there.

Could Goku also have been ashamed at being forced to rely on his son & best friend to finish the battle after previously sending them away for their own safety & they came back to rescue him as a result of his failure to defeat Vegeta on his own thus endangering the two further especially Krillen who could not be brought back if he died again?

edited 28th Apr '17 7:01:34 PM by slimcoder

Hell, Goku only tried sparring Freeza not out of mercy, but because he was bored and didn't think continuing the fight was worth it.

As for the kiss, Goku and Chi-Chi never kissed in the manga, so they have never kissed in canon.

@Moth 13: Pushover Media Critic's post kinda proves that wrong.

Besides, the abridge series portrayed Goku like that before Super was around anyway.

edited 29th Apr '17 12:00:19 AM by Cortez