I know this is what you're talking about. I'm explaining that the perception from outside is more skewed. There's more nuance going on than you're seeing. It's not that what you're seeing is wrong, it's just the whole picture - and, importantly, it's actually not the biggest part of the picture (for example, the reason the attitude towards Germany exists is the issue; it's not Germany, it's the 'Britannia rules the waves' idea, with Germany being the latest scapegoat for any obstruction to regaining that 'control the world' position).
The worst thing that the EU was guilty of when the UK joined was allowing the UK (or any country, for that matter) to have the power to opt-out of things. The opt-outs did nothing more than allow the Little Englander mentality to not just continue existing, but to continue growing.
And, I tell you this: if a miracle happens and Brexit stops, I want to see two things happen:
The EU codifies into solid law exactly what the conditions and processes are for an exit (right down to how a referendum should be held and what majorities and turnout percentages are required), so that this never happens again (and, obviously, so that the Tories can never put the entire continent through this again); and..
The UK, as a condition of halting Brexit and remaining in, loses the opt-outs. In fact, the EU reviews the entire system of opting out and special vetos (not the standard vetos that all countries are allowed, but the special snowflake opt-outs and vetos that only a select few countries have).
But this is probably best continued on the EU or British threads.
There isn't a good argument for Brexit. The reason the Brexit campaign was conducted in the way it was is because there were no facts on the Brexit side. Therefore, facts had to be attacked. And since people very often have a negative emotional reaction to facts note , the point of the Yes campaign was about creating a 'feelgood' factor - take back control, rule the waves, regain the empire. Facts were deliberately associated with fear to make anyone looking at the facts appear weak, pathetic and cowardly. Project Fear was invented - and used - by the Leave campaign before the campaigning even started. They were already talking about Project Fear before Cameron allowed any campaigning to begin because it was obvious what the Remain arguments would be (the facts).
Brexit is nothing more than a drug-induced high; you're sold a feeling, but whenever anyone tries to tell you what coming down from the high feels like or what the withdrawal symptoms are like, or even what unseen damage the drugs are doing to you while you are high, you don't want to know - because the whole point is the feeling. No matter how artificial that feeling is.
Although I've said I'm willing to do a devil's advocate position on the British thread as needed, I can't just switch that on. Because the Leave decision is all about emotion instead of fact, it's something I'll need to psyche myself up to do. I won't be able to present solid facts when I cover the Brexit argument because there aren't any (not any solid ones, anyway), you will be seeing an It's All About Me position expanded to cover a nation instead of simply an individual.
edited 22nd Apr '17 7:38:30 AM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
X-Posted from US politics, in case anyone wants an update of the G20 Women's Summit
Groans as Ivanka Trump defends US President at G20 women's summit
The First Daughter was taking part in a panel discussion about female entrepreneurs alongside German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and IMF chief Christine Lagarde.
But the audience bristled at her praise for the US president.
The event is part of the G20 women's summit.
An audible groan went up as she told the room her father was a "tremendous champion of supporting families and enabling them to thrive".
As she posed for photographs with the world's most powerful women, the first daughter rubbed shoulders with a chancellor, a queen and a leading banker. But it was the absent figure of a president that overshadowed Ivanka Trump's first official overseas engagement.
Ignoring the boos, hisses and disapproval of a room full of female delegates, Donald Trump's special adviser persisted in her defence of a father who, she said, had enabled and encouraged her.
Ostensibly today's visit - at the direct invitation of Angela Merkel - was about empowering women. But it's been widely interpreted here as an attempt to forge another line of communication to the US president, and may mark a profound shift in the way in which Berlin - and Europe - does business with Washington.
Thus far the charm offensive seems to be working. Despite their significantly different politics, Mr Trump has said that he shares an unbelievable chemistry with the German chancellor.
The relationship Mrs Merkel forges with his daughter will be closely scrutinised on both sides of the Atlantic. Because there is an acknowledgement in Berlin that, in the age of Trump, family comes first.
Who were the other women on the panel?
Ms Trump was on the stage thanks to her background as a businesswoman and her position as the US president's daughter. But who were the other women?
Angela Merkel: The German chancellor is arguably Europe's most powerful leader
Christine Lagarde: The head of the IMF.
Queen Maxima of the Netherlands: The Argentinean-born royal worked for some of the world's top banks before meeting and marrying King Willem-Alexander. She is also a UN Special Advocate for Inclusive Finance for Development.
Chrystia Freeland: Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs
Juliana Rotich: Kenyan-born Rotich used to be executive director for Ushahidi, an election mapping platform which was used to track possible voter intimidation in the US election. She now describes herself as a strategic advisor and entrepreneur.
Nicola Leibinger-Kammüller: President and chairwoman of technology company Trumpt, she holds a doctorate in philology.
Anne Finucane: Ms Finucane is vice-president at Bank of America, and was named by Fortune magazine as one of the 50 most powerful woman in the world last year.
I want to know what the fuck the Chancellor thought would happen.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
Probably this exactly, but by sitting through that performance and giving the First Lady a spotlight, she might have gotten her goal, the gateway into Trump's thick skull.
The relationship Mrs Merkel forges with his daughter will be closely scrutinised on both sides of the Atlantic. Because there is an acknowledgement in Berlin that, in the age of Trump, family comes first.
United Earth
Never believe anything Trump says, but it's interesting that he said that at all.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
Certainly good advice, but charm seems to be what the Chancellor was going for, albeit with the First Lady.
She gave Ivanka a spotlight and a podium. That tends to be the way to hearts of egotistical people. Plus Ivanka has Trump's ear and (perhaps?) not his fickleness. So, one can only have a meaningful working relationship with the one.
I doubt that Merkel cares what Trump thinks or says about her. What she wants is the assurance that the Trump adminastration makes no unpredictable shift on issues that Merkel deems essential for Germany and Europe. It is obvious that a lot of Trumps initial statements were mostly caused by his ignorance about the complex realities of foreign policy. So she explained to him why it is not a good idea to trust Putin, or why the USA can not negotiate a trade agreement with Germany individually. Merkel probably told Ivana a lot of thinks which hopefully will find their way to Trumps ear.
An unbelievable chemistry?
So something like oil and water.
Or oxygen and ignited lighter fluid.
And considering we're dealing with a family of rich white assholes with a collective ego the size of a Zeppelin and all the emotional intelligence of a Styrofoam cup, the chances of anything positive reaching Mango Mussolini's ears have probably been missed.
edited 25th Apr '17 2:46:29 PM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Obama and Merkel were also very different in many ways and yet forged a close working relationship.
Inviting Ivanka was the right decision.
edited 25th Apr '17 3:00:36 PM by Zarastro
I guess time will tell on that one.
I remain skeptical.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
One has to give it to Merkel...while everyone was scrambling to figure out who exactly in the white house to talk to in order to get heard, she managed to zoon in on the one person whose position is secure and who knows how to handle Trump. Also, good job on controlling her face this time around...there was just a hint of pity during Ivanka's defence of her father. If you know her, it is obvious that she doesn't really take Ivanka serious, but she is useful, so Merkel will give her a podium and a few shining lights while securing what she deems really important.
United Earth
I pity anyone who has to defend Trump at all, ever.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I don't. They collectively shit the bed and refuse to clean it up while insisting it's better that way.
They can lie in the swill all they want.
I can possibly pity the people doing it out of ignorance or perceived obligation. Fuck everyone else.
I think you're underestimating that family's capacity for malice and her ability to 'handle' a self-absorbed, rambling, incompetent, violent patriarch.
edited 25th Apr '17 3:24:27 PM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
I still can't get over the fact that the Americans chose that guy as their leader... . Particulary how any self-respecting woman could have voted for him.
Then again, women can have bad political judgement as well. After all, more women voted relatively speaking for Hitler than men... .
edited 25th Apr '17 4:13:41 PM by Zarastro
When Merkel was asked that question 'Do you consider yourself a feminist', she just barely stopped herself from rolling her eyes, and everyone noticed her reaction.
I don't blame her for her reaction. That question makes me twitch, too. Of all the superficial, 'I want to be seen asking a smart question so I ask a patronising one instead' questions that could be asked at a women's convention, asking a female leader if she's a feminist ranks right up there.
edited 25th Apr '17 4:41:10 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Oh, bother.
I will second math792d on this.
Don't waste too much sympathy on Ivanka. She and her hubby are objectively pretty bad or at least amoral people themselves. It's just they're overshadowed by the dumpster fire that is Donald.
As for whether Merkel made the right call...consider that (according to Eric Trump) Trump supposedly launched missiles at the Syria base because Ivanka was upset over the chemical weapons being used by Assad. Trump's recent flipflops to neoconservatism may also be due to Ivanka's influence. While I doubt she has any real control over her father, her opinions clearly do hold weight in the WH.
If Merkel is able to convince Ivanka that Germany (and the EU) is the best thing since sliced bread, Trump might — might — come to see it as a useful business partner rather than a competitor that needs to be dismantled.
That said, never forget that Trump is an inherently unstable and unreliable man.
edited 25th Apr '17 7:10:33 PM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
I think we all hope that the Americans finally do what they should have done already and finally take him down. I honestly don't get it. Even without the whole Russia question, he is blatantly using his position for his own personal gain. What he pulls should be enough to get him out of office. I mean, we have gotten rid of high ranking politicians for way, way less.
But until the Americans clean up their mess, we sadly have to deal with it, just like we have to deal with Putin, Erdogan and all the other crazies out there.
Merkel is essentially pragmatic. She'll meet with people, even when they are not in any official position of power, if she thinks it'll allow her
Just when she (what has only been recently become public ) secretly met Jaroslaw Kaczynski last year, who after all, has no official government position in Poland, yet is widely seen as the most important person in Poland.
Take him down? How? The GOP controls each branch of government and they'd only remove him if he stops being useful. I want it as much as you do but unfortunately there just aren't any ways as of right now to take him down.
edited 26th Apr '17 7:59:07 AM by Fourthspartan56
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
On a different note, I just stumbled across this section about Joschka Fischer on the Real Life Never live it down page:
"Joschka Fischer, a life-long leading member of the German Green Party, is mostly remembered for his utterance of "With all due respect, Mr President, you're an asshole" in the Bundestag from his long-haired rebellious days back in the 70s, as opposed to anything he did since then."
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/NeverLiveItDown/RealLife
This is just my opinion, but I don't think that this is what most people nowadays associate with Fischer, certainly not the younger ones. If anything, what people usually remember is his "Excuse me, I am not convinced" regarding the Iraq War.
And wow, is the entry about Charles de Gaulles negative... .
edited 26th Apr '17 6:49:51 AM by Zarastro
I mean, Charles de Gaulle can get fucked, so I'm not seeing the issue there. note
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
I kind of see why he Anglo-Saxon world might have some issues with him, but I doubt that his image is that bad in France, since Fillon, Macron and MLP used him in their election campaigns.
I mean, obviously not.
But I'm not in the Franco-or Anglosphere, and I still say his ghost can get bent 
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
Depends on who you ask, same as with Adenauer probably.
(Yes, der Alte did some hinky shit)
In general, the image of both is probably well loved, but those who actually work on a greater understanding of the person might have a different view.
"You can reply to this Message!"
I actually wrote a thesis on the Eastern enlargement of the EU and the part Germany and the UK played in it. The British were as far as I remenber more concerned to use that enlargement as a way to prevent a deeper integration of the EU. They were also desperate to prevent a scenario Thatcher had painted during the German reunification, according to which Eastern Europe would end up as economic backyard of Germany.