German Politics Thread

I am from NRW too, specifically the Ruhr Valley, and I heartily concur. Our cities are highly in debt, my home town Essen is even de facto bankrupt and yet we have to take loans just for paying the Soli.

This is not down to the Soli, most of the problems are self-made, but if you compare cities like Dresden with cities in the Ruhr Valley, it can be striking that we still have to cough up money from them.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-s-infrastructure-rusts-as-politicians-fiddle-1.2036328

Changing those laws is however very difficult due to the federal structure of the FRG. East Germany accounts for maybe 1/5 of Germany's population, but its' federal states have roughly 40% of the seats in Germany's second chamber, the Bundesrat.

Then there is of course the fact that there is also a general distribution of wealth, called Länderfinanzausgleich, in which richter federal states (today mostly Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg in Southern Germany) are paying money to the other states (including North-Rhine-Westphalia). Which is also a target of criticism from people in Southern Germany. So in short, things are complicated.

Doesn't help that Bavaria was formerly one of the main benefactors from the Länderfinanzausgleich, so their current complaints come off as pretty hypocritical.

Indeed. We in NRW had to pay for them when times were really tough after the war.

Hypocritical bavarian politicians, hold the presses....

The truth is that NRW, especially the Ruhr Valley, has kept a number of other states afloat after the war. Now it is in trouble. It would be too easy to say "it is because of the soli"...it is more complicated than that. Essen for example had a period of mismanagement of funds. BUT! That is only half of the story. The actual problem is that the cities have the highest number of unemployed, and the help for them is paid by said cities. That leaves very little to cover the cost for the basics and nothing for investments. On top of all this, the government offered incentives for companies after the reunion to relocate into the former east. I get the idea behind it (something HAD to replace the run-down industry over there), but what about the people who worked for said companies? Essen for example lost Coca Cola.

I fear we will be unable to stop the Soli, but I think it is high time that it doesn't go "to the east", but to the cities which need the money the most, instead that cities which can't afford it have to keep paying it.

Anyway, a huge chunk of the German population is living in NRW, and we are very aware that solidarity is more often then not a one-way street and it rarely gets repaid. There is Bavaria, who now doesn't want to pay up and do its part for the other states. There is former East Germany where the cities whine how much they still need the Soli while the population hurls abuse against us for "destroying their economy". Helping Greece, after the population there already called us Nazis? Yeah, I admit emotionally I don't feel very charitable. The only reason I bother to care about Greece at all is because the population is suffering, and it is not the fault of the children...but it is the fault of the electorate. Sorry, but "the government did it" is a poor excuse. The government was elected by the people, and when the people keep electing those who would give out unrealistic high hand-outs, they did their part in all this, too.

edited 20th Nov '16 1:40:04 AM by Swanpride

You heard that, voters! Only vote for politicians who make sensible and realistic promises! Otherwise, any of their bad decisions are on you! Be like us, vote for the woman who had one beer when the Wall fell and then showed up punctual to work the next day.

Certainly better than voting for a pussy grabber with no experience in governing whatsoever or the destruction of the economy of my country or a party which will methodically undermine the constitution of my country. Or a guy who wants to exterminate all Jews.

Oh, but he doesn't really want to exterminate Jews, deport Muslims, etc. It's all rhetoric. </sarcasm>

But, seriously, though, we were talking about Greece and modern Germany here. Don't change the subject.

edited 20th Nov '16 2:51:21 AM by TheHandle

It's a subject that runs in circles since there are no politically viable options left.

Point is that the electorate has a choice. Sometimes it is a lot of bad choices and you can just pick the least terrible one, but if you constantly reward those who make empty promises or mismanage the state with your vote, than it is on you if everything falls apart.

Bernard: But surely the citizens of a democracy have a right to know.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: No. They have a right to be ignorant. Knowledge only means complicity in guilt; ignorance has a certain dignity.

It were not simply the politicians who drove Greece over the cliff. Many of its' citizen participated in it by evading taxes, paying and accepting fakelaki, pretending to be handicapped to get social security payment and so on. The sad thing is that the young Greeks are cheated off their future. For example, there are still many unqualified people in leading positions in the bureaucracy, who got there because of a personal favour. The Troika has pressured Greece to fire those people in order to save money and replace them with young qualified people. Instead consequent Greek governments have simply stopped hiring people, thus reducing personal, but to the disadvantage of young Greeks who would be genuily qualified.

Well, it is official, Merkel has announced that she will run a fourth time. Thank Chuck! Now let's hope that no major upset happens in the next year and then we can focus on keeping it together until the rest of the world finds their senses again....

Beyond the facts of everyday Greek tax evasion and similar there is the fact that the Greeks also voted for austerity, they could have voted to leave the Euro and they didn't. I refuse to endorse the German lead ideological austerity and inflation paranoia, but let's not pretend that both the rest of Europe and the Greeks are not a part of it, they enable it and try to profit of it.

This worries me. As I perceive it a lot of hatred against the refugee crisis was directed against Merkels person and not her party. A different candidate could've attracted some former CDU voters back from the AFD.

If Merkel keeps standing behind her refugee politic the scenario of one faux pax before the elections causing an AFD uprising, might become real.

edited 21st Nov '16 6:17:54 AM by Kiefen

There is no different candidate, and if there were one, it would be even more dangerous. See, the Af D has zero chance to become a governing party, no matter what. It is simply not possible. But if the CDU picks another candidate, it would be, due to the influence of the CSU, most likely a more right-wing candidate. That would alienate the more centrist voters of the CDU, who aren't necessarily found of the more right-wing leaning of the CSU (in fact, the ONE time I voted SPD, I did so to keep a CSU candidate from office, even though I hated Schröder with a passion and think to this day that he was one of the worst chancellors Germany ever had...but he was better than the alternative). Anyway, with another candidate for the CDU/CSU we run into the risk of a Linksbündnis, meaning a coalition between the SPD, Die Linke and the left-wing of the Greens (though the SPD and Die Linke actually can't stand each other there is a chance that they might put that aside to get the CDU out of the government)...and that would be a catastrophe for the country. It would strengthen the Af D even further, believe me.

Can I ask why it would be a "catastrophe"? I get that Die Linke are basically the remanent of the East German communists but I'd assume that their crazier ideas would be limited by the SPD.

edited 21st Nov '16 7:05:29 AM by Silasw

Somehow I doubt the SPD would ever form a coalition with Die Linke on the federal level - not only because of the communist cadres still making up part of the party, but because the other part of Die Linke consists of social democrats who left the SPD because of Schröder's politics. As far as I know, there's still bad blood because of that.

edited 21st Nov '16 7:46:17 AM by DrunkenNordmann

Ironically, they also tried to gain votes by criticizing Merkels| refugee policy, not unlike the Af D.

There are currently two main obstacles against a coalition between the SPD and Left party. One are the personal animosities between both parties. The second is their differences in foreign policy. The Left party is for dissvolving the Nato and against any military intervention.

edited 21st Nov '16 11:07:52 AM by Zarastro

On a very basic level, I don't think that extreme views are good under any circumstances, no matter if it is the extreme right or the extreme left. On a historical level Die Linke was born out of the SED, and while this is nowadays less an issue than it was 20 years ago, I think it needs at least another 10 years before I am really ready to believe that the party might have managed to completely disconnect itself from those questionable ties. But on a practical level, Die Linke is ironically just as EU-sceptic as the Af D is. The party might not be quite as open about it, but it would like to pull up the drawbridges as much as possible, too. It also has some very unrealistic views how to use the state money...big promises, no plans how to actually pay for all that stuff other than putting the state into debt. If we had Die Linke in power the last 20 years, Greece would borrow money to us and not the other way around (perhaps a little bit extreme, but you might get my point).

Though the real danger in a Linksbündniss is that than there would be stuff on the table which the majority of the Germans simply doesn't want. Most Germans do agree with the Af D that there is a need to overhaul our Asylum system, they just don't think that a wall is the right solution or trust the promises of the Af D. What they want is that the process is tightened and that people from safe countries are discouraged from even trying. Cologne for example was the result of leftist brilliance....first the ruling party of NRW (The SPD) agreed to take more or less every North-African who turns up in Germany, who are then never send back even though their asylum request was denied because we are apparently unable to deport anyone, said people then turn to crime and start using the "grab them first by the pussy and then by the purse" method they know from their home countries. The FDP warns that this is something we have to counter now, but everybody acts as if they are zoning in on a minor issue, in addition our oh so liberal judges treat those attacks as theft and not as sexual assault (if the attackers are caught in the first place), this sending the entirely wrong message. Throw into the mix the (equally leftist but also corrupt) government of Cologne allowing the crime problem to fester, not sending out enough police during the New Year celebration and then said police sending out a press release that the celebration went without a hitch, knowing fully well that this isn't the case, and voila, the result is a number of sexual attacks on woman which are not even talked about immediately because the news outlets initially work off the official information.

Anyway, the leftist parties are big talking about the protection of the weak, but they like to forget that not everyone who asks for asylum is an innocent little war orphan, and therefore show no inclination whatsoever to actually address the problems of crime which is imported or the building of a parallel societies. But that is exactly what many Germans expect of their government, to finally close the loopholes in our asylum system, do something against the abuse of it and ensure that the people who come become a part of our society. Nothing will strengthen the Af D more than four years of what the Left considers acceptable asylum politics. While Merkel staying around for four more year and managing the situation by finally insisting on overdue reforms will undermine the Af D more than anything else.

What about the possibility of the SPD leading a grand coalition instead of Merkel being the one in charge of it? How would that work?

It wouldn't. Mostly because the SPD is currently not particularly popular. The party has lost its profile.

Also, the CDU will most likely get the most vote and it is kind of an expectation that candidate of the party with the most votes will be the chancellor.

The only alternative I see to a grand coalition is either the CSU and the Green finding enough common ground that the CDU can go for a black/green one, or the FDP making it pack into the parliament strong enough that they are an option for a coalition.

edited 21st Nov '16 4:54:59 PM by Swanpride

What's the problem with the SPD at the moment, why are they so unpopular?

Well, partly because the last chancellor the SPD had privatized the "Sozialen Wohnungsbau" (building for social reasons), which is, imho the main reason we have now such a problem with the rent going through the rood in certain cities (mainly Munich and Berlin). He also did some cuts into our social system, some of which were necessary, but some of them undermined the worker rights...which is more or less the opposite you expect a worker party to do. Oh, and once Schröder was no longer chancellor, he went all buddy, buddy with his business friends...a lot of SPD members still think a lot of him, but the SPD voters don't necessarily feel the same.

Also the party split a couple of years ago, the left wing of it basically moved into Die Linke...since then Die Linke has so many seats, and it is the main reason why the CDU is currently so incredible strong. Anyway, the moderate Left have currently problems to show itself different from the CDU since the CDU has moved so far into the centre, it is more or less smack in the middle.

They also didn't really have any remarkable politicians for quite a while. There is not one federal state which prospered under a competent SPD leadership, not one SPD politician which really sticks out. Hell, I would have an easier time to list remarkable politicians from the greens who I wouldn't mind take a stab at a minister job, than any SPD politician I would trust with anything.

Because they're another socialist party that wipe their asses with socialist principles, leaving them with absolutely no niche whatsoever - they can't even say "we're not the CDU" because they're consistently joining grand coalitions with their theoretical opponents.

I mean, as much as Swanpride and Zarastro lionize ordoliberalism, you would think that groups that call themselves Socialist would oppose it. But they don't.

edited 22nd Nov '16 12:04:08 AM by Ramidel