Halal and other religions

Yeah. I find the current methods used both in raising and in killing questionable at best and down right horrifying at worst. Halal killing isn't so bad as many would think because again consciousness is lost very quickly. Really I'd rather their strength be wholly focused on how the animals are raised than Halal and Kosher practices.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Octo does have a point. Non-halal beef is supposedly cheaper, so assuming this, some enterprenuer would sell non-halal beef in Paris.

But really... Does it really matter how most animals are killed when factory-farming practically tortures animals for their entire lives? Society should focus on fixing that first. Of course, the problem with that is that meat in general would be more expensive if everything were free-range, and there would be a lot less meat in the world. However, factory-farming is a lot worse than making food halal or kosher.

edited 20th Feb '12 3:40:32 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly

Halal dictates that the animal must not just be killed in a humane way, but also to a certain degree of health. Factory farming where a animal is kept in vices or chickens genetically altered with breasts so big they cannot stand are not halal or kosher.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

All I can say is, how the heck is all meat in Paris halal? And also the method of slaughter for an animal and the meat being halal, isn't the same thing. The only meaning of "halal" is that it is allowed under Islam. If the local imams told the muslim followers that eating beef raised in the French manner was "halal" and they felt like accepting that interpretation of the quran, then the meat is halal. That's, of course, unlikely, but that's basically all that halal means.

This kind of total lack of understanding of the religion leads to the same people who defraud muslims, who can be just as ignorant, with stupid stuff like "halal soap" and so on.

You know this feels like the whole hindu/sikh/muslim banter over animal slaughter/raising practices. Everybody saying the other group was super inhumane.

edited 20th Feb '12 9:24:29 PM by breadloaf

The idea here is its basically yet another "oh god the scary brown people are going to destroy democracy " plea.

The concept of Halal Spoap is not an entirely meaningless one, if it's made from animal grease. Example: the soap from Fight Club is definitely not Halal.

Halal means no bacon and other tasty things. It's quite annoying to go to a chain restaurant that normally serves bacon and being told it's halal. I realize it's their restaurant and they can serve whatever they want, but it still sucks. I want my bacon, damn it!

Kosher and Halal have different rules about what foods can be served together (like the Halal restaurant around here has a chicken with cream sauce dish), but when Kosher meat is unavailable Halal is similar enough to be a good enough substitute, if one is keeping Kosher.

Also the Halal restaurant around here is not more expensive than any other restaurant around here that does not serve Halal. If Halal meat is so much more expensive than secularly-slaughtered meat, I don't know how they keep their prices down.

Note: "All meat in Paris is Halal" is an oversimplification of "All slaughterhouses in Île-de-France*

use Halal methods". I know one high-ranked guy in agriculture stated the latter is true, but I don't remember which one Marine Le Pen alleged when she raised her conspiracy theory.

PS: Are Halal and Kosher mutually exclusive or not?

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

I think they are. It seems that Kosher is more or less automatically Halal, but not vice versa. Unless it contains alcohol. Then it might be Kosher, but not Halal.

Here's a list of similarities and differences.

edited 21st Feb '12 2:37:55 AM by Balmung

@Pykrete: Really? Does that happen? Isn't the air-gun to the head supposed to kill them instantly?

Be not afraid...

People are upset with secular livestock farming practices though

edited 21st Feb '12 3:21:54 AM by whaleofyournightmare

Dutch Lesbian

See, the thing is, if they're specifically bitching about Halal and saying shit like "the only reason it's even legal is that it's a religious practice", then no, they're kind of not getting mad about secular slaughter. They're kind of implying that it's only Halal that's the problem and that other methods are totally cool. That's not even getting into how there are people who get mad at halal even when there's no slaughter involved. I have seriously encountered people who are offended that a motherfucking candy bar is considered halal. When people pointed out that it wasn't actively made halal and just happened to not do anything to disqualify it from being halal their response was basically "well maybe we should, I don't want to be eating no muslim food". That's basically the mindset of people who get angry at halal: they're angry at the idea that people who look or think differently than them are welcome in their country.

Or maybe they just want bacon on their burger when they go to Nando's. We may never know.

Note his specific example about the candy bar.

something

Uhm, yes? Especially in such a situation. If you're truly sick of of lacking availability of goods (like meat from animals not slaughtered according to halal methods), then you exploit that niche and try to offer that good yourself. And maybe make a good profit, too.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Hmmmm, I don't think all the meat in Paris can be Halal. I'd buy a good portion of it being Halal, though I wouldn't see a problem with that. Halal seems relatively humane, especially if you look at the animal's whole life, not just the killing process.

edited 21st Feb '12 7:13:42 AM by Katrika

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

Well, like the poster about the candy bar example, halal only means it is allowed under Islam. It doesn't mean an imam went over and started chanting over a slab of beef. So there's two issues with the statement:

A) It's impossible for all meat in the Parisian region to be halal considering a lot of it is pork. French beef is horrendous, or at least cooked terribly :)

B) For something to be halal does not mean muslims did anything. That is, for something to be halal means they're allowed to use/eat it, it doesn't mean muslims have somehow done something ritualistic to make it "halal".

The only possible reason to even care if the meat in Paris is all halal is if it somehow causes prices to rise enough for that to be an issue. Out of curiosity, since halal meat is usually (not always) kosher, how does this particular politician feel about kosher meats?

Hmm. That Wikipedia article says that that God's name must be pronounced before each slaughter for it to be halal. That doesn't apply to the candy bar example, but it does imply a bit more than just simple preparation is required to be halal. But then it goes on to quote a section from the Hadith where this either wasn't required or God said it was okay.

One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade

That's mostly ignored because most of the moderate interpretations say you have to be reasonable and fit in with local culture, so pronouncing God's name before each slaughter is a bit over the top in any western country (and probably most mid-east ones).

I'm kind of curious how it works. I'm Jewish and gotta admit I don't totally understand how kashrut works, but I believe that for "general products" like the candy bar, an approved rabbi would come in to the plant and inspect their procedures and then sign off, allowing the company to put that label on the product. I would guess that it's the same for things labeled Halal?

Hodor

Well Islam is very decentralised, so it literally depends on who you talk to. Since (I imagine) most of us live in western countries, the majority of the muslims that we would personally know and could know, are going to be of the type that care much less. So it's more like "it's good enough to be Halal" rather than any actual imam inspecting anything. Can you imagine the local uproar if a mosque were asking manufacturer's to be inspected to see if they meet halal requirements?

Or, shockingly, they're angry that laws designed to protect animal welfare are being circumvented for religious reasons. They're not okay with secular practices, but they're especially not okay with what little protections that exist being ignored for bullshit reasons.

Edit: And ngl, you sound american. The issues with integration that exist are multifold and deeply complicated, pretending there's any simple answer or one group of opposition is dishonest.

Editedit: For example my local gay community had a strong trend of 'islamophobia', do you think that's because they dun like dem furriners, or perhaps because the muslim community has an acceptance rate of homosexuality hovering somewhere around one percent?

edited 21st Feb '12 11:52:48 AM by Sandor

"When you cut your finger, I do not bleed." Response of a man who lived on the outskirts of a concentration camp.

I think that's a little disingenuous to say that somehow they're hiding behind religion to practice animal cruelty.

Now here's how Islam originally wanted you to do it:

• Quick and painless, the animal is not supposed to know what is about to happen. Then you slash the throat, bleed out the animal, it's supposed to be done right so that the animal does not suffer.
• You do it in the name of God (say that line, not sure what the line is)
• Other animals may not see other animals being slaughtered

Today, who knows? With economy of scale, factory farms and so on, it's not likely for those steps to really be followed. In Saudi Arabia they basically have a computer that reads out the line before the cow is killed (or so I've heard).

So to say that muslims or muslim farmers are somehow hiding behind religion to commit animal cruelty is really baffling to me. The original religious description says for there to be no cruelty allowed, so really it's more like playing on total misconception by the French and hiding behind the ignorance.

edited 21st Feb '12 11:56:34 AM by breadloaf

I think a convincing argument was made earlier in the thread that halal and kosher methods of slaughter are probably more humane (for lack of a better word) than secular methods. Even with modern methods, one of points of halal and kosher laws is that you don't be cruel to the animal.

But is that enough reason to discount all Muslims? I mean, discounting a particular community is one thing, discounting all followers of a religion for biases not all of them hold is another. I understand where they're coming from, heck, I've experienced it myself, but an entire group can't be discounted like that.

One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade