Writing it wrong? Without troping first?

@Iaculus: Depends on whether it's a troll or not, doesn't it?

And more seriously, it's a story and it actually does show most of the signs of being such. That it's a bad story doesn't mean the method failed; it means the method wasn't optimal.

You're welcome, i Dreams. Keep us posted on the progress in this thread or hang out at Writer's Block Daily.

'Wrong' is a matter of value. I'd argue that a bad story is largely valueless. Especially if one is offering writing advice.

And if you dislike the example, how about The Eye Of Argon? Pretty concrete evidence that there is, indeed, a very wrong way to write and assemble a story.

In stating that wrong is matter of value, you have illustrated why there is no universally wrong way; because value is a judgement of the beholder. Even a failure of intended outcome is not necessarily a failure as a work (back to The Jungle; and The Eye of Argon is in many ways a fantastic and instructive read because of its poor quality).

And unless you know for a fact one work or another was prepared and assembled and written a certain way then saying that there is a "bad" or "wrong" way to write or prepare to write is heavily disingenuous, nevermind the fact that techniques which fail one person may not fail another.

edited 28th Jan '12 12:58:48 PM by Night

Also, when you declare a certain way of doing things as "wrong", there's a 100% possibility that someone wrote a book using that method and it turned out pretty great, actually.

Also also: you should try out all sorts of ways of writing stories. Planning, not planning, troping, not troping, etc. Helps you get to know what works best for you and allows you to get to know yourself as a writer.

I imagine if there is such a thing as "wrong".. iconoclastic and experimental works like Finnegans Wake, or The Illuminatus Trilogy would fall under that wrong label because it doesn't adhere to that "rightness" all those other writings have.

Or you shall say that "wrong" is when it dulls and bores the reader, or the reader is left with such a bad feeling that he needs to regurgitate it somewhere like here. One can say that My Immortal will screw your logic many times over, but I didn't mind reading it and actually found it more goodly (if not in drama, then it's better than some Comedies trying hard to be funny) than some so-called good writing that has all the trademarks of good fiction - interesting ways of stating things, perfect grammar and spelling, rounded characters - but which left me.. bored in the end, in spite of it.

I wouldn't say though I'd like more "poor quality" writing, but that a je ne sais quoi on part of the author, a passion, brings things much more to life - and that's something you're not going to find in any how-to fundamentals of writing.

edited 28th Jan '12 1:10:40 PM by QQQQQ

Personal view: recreational troping when you're stuck is good for the soul. You'll probably not run into anything you'll use.. but, you could find an example that sparks something you can.

It's also a good way to switch your brain off to the problems you're having, whilst feeling like you're still doing something related to the tale. It's a better class of time-waste that might have a pay-off!

Besides which - you might not use what you come across for this story... but who's to say about the next?

I personally recomend the detuctive method. The more planning before writting a story the better.

could someone PM me if they would like to read the script for chp 1? Its been layout-ed for Comic pages.

Also, when you declare a certain way of doing things as "wrong", there's a 100% possibility that someone wrote a book using that method and it turned out pretty great, actually.

Which is why, of course, we should never warn someone against trying to write a story without a basic grasp of the English language, or against trying to make their character likeable by having him brutally rape a kitten on page 1.

If someone gets that right (or even passable), it's due to their talents as a writer, not the merits of the idea.

Mother of Odin, guys, are you really saying that there's no such thing as bad writing?

This whole idea of starting a story by thinking about tropes first reminds me of an early episode of the 30 Rock.

For the people who have never seen it before, 30 Rock pretty much takes place on the set of a Saturday Night Live-esque comedy show in New York's 30 Rockefeller Plaza. On the third episode, one of the head executives at General Electric/NBC get the opportunity to write at the comedy show for a week. He's had no experience with writing comedy at all, and as we know, comedy writing is ncredibly difficult.

His solution? Starting with catchphrases first. Sure, the sketches have nothing in the way of premise, characters, or purpose, but when you starting with a catchphrase will make everything funny, and help everything fall into place. Right?

Wrong.

There is tons of bad writing, bad ways to begin writing, and bad ways to tell a story. Cherry-picking examples (well, James Joyce, F. Scott Fitzgerald, or J.R.R. Tolkein did it) doesn't make this invalid. Maybe they could do certain things because they were either genius, or worked hard and wrote for years to give their writing the appearance of genius. But us, young people starting out and trying new things: we have to begin simply and let our skill grow. Starting with tropes is not the way to do it.

Yes, it can be fun practice, prompts, or letting out steam, but...no.

edited 28th Jan '12 1:50:30 PM by BetsyandtheFiveAvengers

I'm normally one of the biggest advocates for the subjectivity of quality here, but I have to agree with this. There is a certain point beyond which a work can be said to be objectively "bad", and there are likewise a number of ways to write that will almost always cause it to be that way. Attempting to assemble a work entirely from tropes is one of them.

edited 28th Jan '12 1:57:01 PM by nrjxll

I should tell that guy to use commonly used catchphrases in uncommon situations. I've never seen an episode of 30 Rock, sorry if this seems utterly out of context Betsy - but when you're about to purposely fail an investment scheme for schloes you hate? "That's the idea." Or how about "Son? I have a favour to ask. Need ya to go dressed as a girl in the women's washroom, find out if your mum's a good sport." "Gee whiz, Pa! I'd love to!" (Think 50's good family sitcoms.)

Don't worry chico. It's not bad - you just gotta roll further.

Gee whiz. Didn't know you were God, good sir. (A work for me is two things intertwined; the observer and the observed, like quantum physics. And without the observer, the observed is nothing.)

edited 28th Jan '12 2:42:05 PM by QQQQQ

I'm sorry, what?

You know, I'm going to just be brutally honest here - I'm not interested in having a debate about writing quality with someone who can't be bothered to express themselves clearly to begin with.

Please head back to the topic of the original question. You're fallen off on a tangent at this point.

How is this a tangent? I was arguing that attempting to assemble a work entirely from tropes - which is what the OP is worried about not doing - is one of the small number of ways to objectively write badly.

It can be considered a tangent when we put too much emphasis on the Tropes Are Tools part over helping the OP. Not mentioning the gradual edge that's been developing. (I would prefer allowing a topic to evolve beyond its original intention, though.)

edited 28th Jan '12 2:51:22 PM by QQQQQ

The OP seems to have already been helped, though, so I'm not sure what point there still is for this thread if that's the case.

Thread Hop

As for fleshing things out, I often find that simply opening up a Word document and typing ideas helps me out.

Who are your characters? What's their past, and how did they come to be where they are when we first meet them? How do they see the world? How do they think? What do they want? How do they want to get there? How do they learn and grow and change? How do they interact with each other? What's their world like? How does it differ from ours, and how is it the same? How does the world see your characters? How do they interact with their world? What conflicts might develop through interactions between your characters, each other and the world? How do their conflicts begin, develop and get resolved?

I have an updated and edited version of chapter one. PM if you wanna read and critique! I love peoples input!