Gingrich vows to make the Moon 51st State by 2020 if Elected

There's no invention necessary for the most part. It's doable now, most of the technology required would likely be more advanced automation (which is always beneficial).

If you're looking for technology created that is beneficial, here's a list of some of it.

Fight smart, not fair.

First I will challange the following:

The failure of the international community to prevent evils like genocide should not be the reason to ignore the Law. Claiming the Moon as part of a single nation would be like trying to copywrite all the world's water supplies.

On the OP copetion may cause techological advancement as seen in the Space Race but it has unstability issues. A great problem is placing copetion at the centre may lead to increased political tention, especilly as claiming the Moon as part of ones nation may cause... undesirable results from the international community, especilly Russia, China and the EU who have massive space intrests.

I see co-operation as a more effective model for making settlements on the Moon. Remember the Apollo–Soyuz Test Project was a symbol of lessening tentions between the USA and the USSR. With co-operation we can share techology, allow scientists more chance to discover and promote political stability between the nations taking part in the space project.

This is why I am happy that the EU has made space treaties with Russiaas it permits greater chance of space colonization.

I also notice the comments here on this BBC work that releashed in 1998 that has some intresting notes on Space Colonization, including some on the ownership of the Moon. However what ever happens, this quote from the comments is the core aim of our aims to go into space:

Getting into space is the safety valve for this planet and the ultimate key to the survival of the human race.

edited 26th Jan '12 1:36:51 AM by Ailedhoo

I’m a lumberjack and I’m ok. I sleep all night and work all day.

Are you seriously suggesting that the availability of luxury goods and culinary achievements is more important than human lives?

The ideals of the Enlightenment are not being honored by the Western civilization currently.

Colonialism instituted the most vicious and systematic form of slavery known to man.

For entirely economic reasons...

They released their slaves? Magnanimous! Except that they continued to mistreat the colonies in a perfectly institutionalized manner (supported apartheid while in power, fucked India etc.).

Pretty sure that the percent of the population threatened by the sacrifices is nothing compared to the number wiped out by the Spanish.

edited 26th Jan '12 1:52:36 AM by Gwirion

You are a blowfish.

What is it with genocide and Africa that makes people wanna bring it up all the time?

Look. This thread is about a US politician claiming to want to annex the Moon, more or less. It's not about international law, and it certainly isn't about some ridiculous misconception about geopolitics and history that Africa is all about genocide.

Get back on-topic, stop talking about stupid, inflammatory things that have nothing to do with the topic, and stop calling each other ignorant.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

The topic itself is stupid and inflammatory. What happened to OTC topics being approved by mods before being open for discussion? How did something saying "colonialism is a-okay and we should go back to the mindset of exploitation and genocide" pass the censors?

edited 26th Jan '12 1:55:13 AM by Gwirion

You are a blowfish.

Best Of, you realise all these are connected to the matter stated in OP? Annexing Moon violates International Law, thus it is discussed. OP commented that he wished return of colonialism period. People responded they don't want, then justified why not. OP responded.

This is called discussion. If we are limited to only the link in OP, this thread would 7 replies that would be "no" or "yes". I swear, moderation has gone insane in OTC...

I approved of this thread, hoping against hope that the points raised in the OP could be discussed in a civil manner - and they largely have. Maybe I didn't think the references to colonialism through... Or rather, I didn't think that they would take such a large role in this discussion, and that it would instead focus on 1) Gingrich's position on this and 2) the question of colonising space, both of which are interesting topics.

So basically, I only read the comments about colonialism in the OP from the perspective of looking at the potential benefits of space colonialism, as most of the cons of historical colonialism simply don't apply in space.

Well, I'm still learning to be a mod, so my flame radar isn't primed yet.

Let's just hope that this conversation can go on from here without a drawn-out debate about the pros and cons of global (as opposed to lunar or in general space) colonialism and the history thereof.

Comparing colonialism in space to historical colonialism is OK, I think. I don't think it's a very fertile ground for discussion, though, as the similarities between these things aren't very great. In any case, the comparison should focus on things that are relevant to this discussion.

Talking about international law regarding space is also on-topic. Saying that international law can be ignored because it's currently ignored by political entities that are largely condemned by the world is not a valid contribution to the discussion, though. It's flame-y and doesn't serve a purpose, which is why I thumped it.

If the OP were just a link, we wouldn't have let it pass. (We don't want "link-discuss" threads.) It's good that the OP framed the discussion, and if the positions in it are controversial, at least there's room for discussion. Thing is, I think there's plenty of discussion to be had about space colonisation without focusing on the history of the concept of colonialism.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

edited 26th Jan '12 2:14:32 AM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

How about this then: claiming the Moon as American territory would hardly be the first time the American government broke international law to get something it wanted.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

Sure. I would still argue that the fact that the US currently ignores some international laws isn't a good reason to ignore more international laws; instead, it should strive to not break international laws at all.

I guess the general lack of interest in international law among US politicians is something that Gingrich would encourage to gain approval for this crazy plan of his. I don't think that that kind of thing would really fly among the people who would make any future lunar missions possible, though. (Those people being NASA, the relevant Universities in the US, and all the international partners that would be necessary to make it happen; I don't think that even a tenth of these institutions would be willing to violate the agreements that forbid nations from claiming space.)

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

There's no reason we can't draw up a new treaty when the time comes. It's not a big deal right now because we don't have the technology to establish permanent bases on the moon or exploit its resources, (moon cheese) but when we do, we'll have to decide who owns what, and it doesn't have to be by fighting over it with laser guns.

I would assume that any space colonies would be under the flag of the United Nations, which would represent Earth well enough, and name the first Moon colony "Armstrong" to keep the U.S. happy and give credit where credit is due.

edited 26th Jan '12 2:36:50 AM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly

The lost of NASA is a blow but there are other space agencies that have formed in the meantime.

No it hasn't, what has been holding back space travel is a lack of political will and people seemingly more interested in glassing deserts and bombing small particles of sand into smaller particles. Also, claiming extraterrestrial bodies is as illegal as claiming Antarctica.

If Gingrich or Paul gets voted in, it will be the early colonial days again in the United States.

And the natives got shafted for it.

War and Necessity are the parents of innovation -sigh-

I don't know where you live son but the world isn't standing still.

Dutch Lesbian

And died from cholera, dysentry and smallpox.

That attitude seems to be attitude of person born in world that isn't currently in war I've seen that as joke about EU, something like old person commenting on how it has preserved peace for 50 years and young person saying "Boring".

Also result of reading too much fiction that glorifies war, adventure and such stuff.

edited 26th Jan '12 2:44:20 AM by SpookyMask

To give credit where it's due, everyone involved in the lunar landings would have to be honoured - so why not name the base Apollo?

Except that there probably won't ever be a moon base - it's not worth the cost. A better training camp could be built in Greenland or Antarctica, more research could be done with satellites, and besides, there's almost nothing (except experience) to be gained from colonising the moon.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Colonising the moon is an important though. Yes, yes it is expensive but can one place a price tag on progress? Training camps in Greenland may be good but we need to do an experiment on ground outside Earth, ground that space stations may find difficulty in simulating. Colonising the Moon may help us in colonising Mars by giving us a model of a base. If we can growth on ground that will not do for plants, we should find it easier to place a settlement on the harsh soils of Mars. Also the scientific community would like to have access to explore the Moon and a base may allow that to be more logistically easier. Even a small village sized colony will do just to serve as a trail.

I’m a lumberjack and I’m ok. I sleep all night and work all day.

Even with all that taken into consideration, it would still be much more expensive that other ways to reach comparable levels of progress.

I agree that there isn't such a thing as too expensive when it comes to progress, but we must take into consideration what kind of progress we reach for, as there's a finite amount of resources that we have to use for our research.

Sending more and more satellites and probes could and probably would advance our pursuit of a colony in Mars more than a moon base would, at least given the amount of technology that would be required to build the moon base.

Our next goal should be a space elevator. If we had that, everything would be so much easier. Thing is, though, it doesn't appear to be any closer a goal that a manned mission on Mars.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

We don't currently have the material technology for a space elevator. And really, "carbon nanotubes" has been mostly a buzzword so far. Still, that is just to warn for too high expectations. I think we can reach such development levels as to make a space elevator possible, and that is indeed the sort of progress we should aim for: Expansion of knowledge, not nilly-willy setting up outposts on other rocks in space that would have no sense and purpose at all.

The greatest achievement of humanity has not been the moon landing. It's the steam engine, or the micro processor, or the internet or maybe the mapping of the human genome. That is, either true scientific achievements or stuff that actually revolutionizes society. And that, rather than the metaphorical dick waving of glory hound projects, is what we should aim for.

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I agree with Octo on pretty much everything he said in his post.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Mm.

Gingrich is a dumbass.

First of all.

Secondly, colonialism is a godawful stupid system that wouldn't even produce quality work.

Thirdly, this OP should have been locked immediately.

Fourthly, why the fuck would you annex the Moon? I mean, yeah, it makes for good fiction, but the reality is that there isn't anything of value warranted a colony on the Moon. All that you can do is establish a base for fuel gathering so you can move on to grander ideas.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

Dick waving. It's all about dick waving. Especially for such people as the OP.

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Because colonising the moon is more important to the Right in America than fixing shit. I mean whose going to notice that 60+ million Americans can't afford healthcare when you own the moon.

Dutch Lesbian

Hm, true. The space travel sector is to the American plutarchs what illegal immigration is to the Mexican plutarchs: a distraction of convenience.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

I wouldn't say so. After all, NASA does get relatively few money as is. But with all the juvenile cries for space colonization one so often finds on the net, there is certainly a rather alarming potential for that.

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