Russians propose international Moon base

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46064050/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Yes, please. Honestly, more cooperation in space is a very good thing, and I am surprised that we didn't go with this over the ISS in the first place.

I recommend that you beef up the OP a bit. I mean, include a summary of the link or ask some questions that will direct the conversation or something.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

The ISS was much more feasible at the time, I assume. It's not exactly easy to build anything in space. Hell, just the ISS was groundbreaking technology for its time. And still is, in a lot of ways.

Also, freaking awesome. (And yeah, international cooperation is what I'm expecting for further space projects. It means more resources can be put into any given project.)

What a joke. The Russians currently don't even manage to get their satellites into orbit without a problem. If such a proposal was coming from the USA or China, I'd take it seriously. But Russia? Not a chance...

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Yeah, the US would do this with what NASA budget, again?

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

I personally don't particularly expect the 21st century to include a human setting foot on the moon. Just because we've done it before doesn't mean it's convenient.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story

That's an awful big prediction to be making for the next eighty eight years, INUH.In which anything might happen, particularly with technological breakthroughs.

Flyboy; Yeah, we need more money. But the thing is, proposing projects like this is how you get people motivated to give you money. The other part is that they have to pitch it as hard as possible. And possibly make it a voter issue, though I don't know how you could go about that.

The fate of the recent Russian probe to Phobos isn't encouraging, even if the idea is otherwise great.

If NASA, the ESA, CSA, JAXA, KARI and CNSA were planning such a project, it'd be as good as done, basically. Actually, you can pick any 3 of those and you could do it and the agencies involved could afford it if you allowed them a decade or two.

The Russian space program simply isn't working too well right now, though I imagine it'll be fixed as soon as it starts to serve a more useful purpose to Putin (propaganda or the fact that Russia is lagging behind in space technology and needs to catch up are the two that spring to mind.)

edited 20th Jan '12 6:21:53 PM by BestOf

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Man, NASA needs a shot of adrenaline in the arm, too. As it is, it's as much on the chopping block as education is in this country. But considering the attractions of being one of the first to help build a moonbase, I think they can spin that in a positive way.

On the other hand, though, there seems to be a whole lot more that we can do with a program (or set of programs) of probes and satellites than we can with a moon base, if we send out as many satellites and probes as we can with the projected costs of a moon base.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Well, that's if you just want to continue doing just the research you want to do with space probes and satellites. A manned moonbase opens itself up to all sorts of environmental experiments and a try at colonization of another celestial body. I mean, hell, if you're going to build something like this, why are you only going to do the same old kind of research you're already doing?

No, I mean, I think I saw an article (feel free to discard the rest of this post based on how I started it, by the way; but if you read on, I think you'll find it plausible) where someone from NASA said that a lunar base doesn't offer enough potential for scientific research to justify spending for it instead of, say, the ISS. There simply are more things you can do, no matter what you want to study (including the moon itself) with satellites and probes than with a moon base.

That said, the bit about actual experience with a space colony (different from the ISS) does, to me, sound really useful. I think it would, together with the research (so basically launching fewer probes and satellites because you're doing part of their job in the moon base,) justify the spending to make it happen.

edited 20th Jan '12 6:49:26 PM by BestOf

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Wait, when you say satellites, do you mean manned stations? I'm a little confused on that part now. Far as I know, all satellites (non manned) and probes do is record and send back information. I'm a believer in the value of hands on research in science. (Not that I am particularly good at science myself, mind you, I'm probably very ignorant in a lot of cases, but it strikes me that there's just things that machines can't do as well as humans unless we successfully develop a non crazy AI.)

I'm not talking about manned satellites (except the ISS. And the Moon base, as it would be located on a satellite of the Earth.)

Hands-on is nice when it's practically possible, but the research we do in space... Sending stuff up is hard as hell and even more expensive than that, and so we fill everything up with useful stuff like sonar panels and research equipment and radio transmitters and what have you.

If you put a human in there, you'll need a lot of facilities that take up space that you could use for something more useful; and for automated stuff like almost everything in a satellite, you really don't need to have a human in there. Besides, the human would have to be taken home at some point, necessitating a whole bunch of otherwise useless manned missions.

Note that everything we send in space, even if automated, is still supervised and partially operated by the bases on Earth. That's also where a large chunk of the data analysis happens. So even if you've got a base and three dozen satellites, I'd still call it "hands-on" research if I'm allowed to extend my hands a bit by applying machinery over vast distances. If there is a point in using the term "hands-on" and then breaking it (I vaguely suspect there is,) I'm sure you can spot it...)

edited 20th Jan '12 7:05:48 PM by BestOf

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And that's why the USA in fact does not propose it.

The Russians though want to have all the glamour of a great power and hence attempt/propose such stunts, but since they're not of a great power anymore, actually, they can't pull it off.

Not this again... no. Just having a ground statiion out there does nothing for any sort of colonization.

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I don't know, but if we do go with a moon base, it'd be nice to have it be international.

More recent cooperation between ESA and CNSA to study Earth's magnetosphere is a more "tried and true" type of cooperation that can build bonds between engineers of Europe and China. Everybody shares data, it's politically neutral and everybody is happy to have developed new technology. I just want space programs to just cooperate normally and have it as an every day thing.

Canada produces a lot of robotics for NASA, our government should forward the organisation to do everybody's robotics. Then again, Canada's government would have to stop being neocon first but whatever.

We should all just accept that going into space was pretty much just a contest between the US and the USSR. Now Russia doesn't have the funds and the US couldn't care less now that the Cold War is over.

Now if the terrorists got a Moon base, then the US might start funding NASA again.

Really, I hope that we continue to try to get off this rock and would hope to at least see a moon base in my lifetime.

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To be fair, the Russian soyuz has more lift capacity than anything America has right now, and its been a proven workhorse for the past sixty years.

One reason why I like the idea of an international moon colony is it avoids the unpleasant issue of one nation claiming turf on a celestial body. Not to mention that the Moon has pretty limited water supplies and can probably only support one or two bases (until we figure out how to import water in large amounts, say by capturing rogue comets and bringing them to lunar orbit), so its either first country there wins, or we play nice and share.

It was always going to be an international effort, if only too share costs.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

This is good news for humanity.

It is also good news for the Isle of Man which may benafit via its space industry.

edited 20th Jan '12 11:58:26 PM by Ailedhoo

I’m a lumberjack and I’m ok. I sleep all night and work all day.

Well, if anyone ever managed to run a space programme on a shoestring budget, it'd be Russia. Their achievements in the Space Race (i.e. beating the Americans to everything except the first man on the moon) are all the more impressive considering. Genuine co-operation with NASA and the ESA could bear all sorts of fruit, and international co-operation is anything but a bad thing, so I'd like to see what comes of this.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Yeah, but not now and certainly not on Russia's suggestion. They currently just plain suck a the spaceflight thing - and besides, currently nobody would contribute financially. So this is IMO kinda a non-issue.

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One probe going down doesn't mean that the Russians "suck" at spaceflight. They have lost fewer astronauts in the line of duty than the USA, and are arguably better at building space stations than anyone else. There's a reason that the ISS couldn't exist without Russia's help - we needed their expertise in zero gravity construction to pull it off. Not to mention that we have always entrusted the ISS crew's lives to the Russian "lifeboat" that is permanently docked at the station, and its the Russians who have done the bulk of the resupply missions.

They are also the only country to ever land a probe on the surface of Venus, built the first space station, were the first to land a rover on the Moon, first living creatures (Laika the cosmomutt) to enter space, first PEOPLE to enter space, first TO ENTER SPACE PERIOD, and the first to send a probe to another planet. And even though their space budget is in the dumps, they have never given up on the goal of reaching Mars, while our space program doesn't seem to have a real goal. I honestly wouldn't be surprised of this century's "Sputnik moment" is a Russian landing on Mars before America.

Don't just go insulting a great space program's long list of accomplishments based off of a current crisis in leadership. The Russians are good scientist and they don't deserve to be judged on a few recent failures.

One probe, and several satellites (plain orbital satellites). Of course the Russians have had a great history of spaceflight, and hence have much experience in the matter, and yeah, the ISS pretty much depends on them (plus it was built using the experience of their Mir station).

However, just because they've had a really great run so far doesn't mean that currently, due to lacking finances and maladministration their space program can't be in serious troubles - and that is exactly what's happening. The point is, to retain glamour, their space program is regularly biting off more than it can currently chew, and this suggestion seems like just a further case of it.

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I dont even know why space is still national.

There should be like a Space UN that just pools funding and works together for the advancement of mankind.

But I guess nations dont give a shit about that.