White Privilege

I found this to be very eye-opening indeed.

It's very odd to think of all the inherent advantages society gives me just for how I was born. As a straight white male, I have these and many other "little perks". To be honest, it sickens me a bit and strikes me as completely unfair.

How do my fellow tropers feel about this? I know many here are the same as I am, though there are others who are vastly different and unable to experience such benefits. I would like to hear thoughts from both parties on this unspoken yet drastic imbalance. Better yet, is there any way to help society overcome this?

edited 19th Jan '12 5:27:01 PM by Firebert

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I believe there was an older thread that addressed this issue, but I can't find it. Here's a good quote from a writer I came across a while back. I can't remember his name, but the section provides a good argument on this subject of privilege and how power is implicitly given to those in an already advantageous position.

“Usually, this denial plays out in one of two ways: either we seek to shift the focus of discussion to our status as members of some other group that isn't socially dominant (so, for example, whites who are poor or working class will insist that because of their economic marginalization, they effectively enjoy no racial privilege at all), or we retreat to the tired but popular notion that all have an equal opportunity in this, our colorblind meritocracy.

Denying ones privileges is of course nothing if not logical. To admit that one receives such things is to acknowledge that one is implicated in the process by which others are oppressed or discriminated against. It makes fairly moot the oft-heard defense that "I wasn't around back then, and I never owned slaves, or killed any Indians, " or whatever.

If one has reaped the benefits of those past injustices (to say nothing of ongoing discrimination in the present) by being elevated, politically, economically and socially above persons of color, for example—which whites as a group surely have been thanks to enslavement, Indian genocide and Jim Crow—then whether or not one did the deed becomes largely a matter of irrelevance.”

“Of course, what is ultimately overlooked is that denial of one's privilege itself manifests a form of pri-vilege: namely, the privilege of being able to deny another person's reality (a reality to which they speak regularly) and suffer no social consequence as a result.

Whites pay no price, in other words, for dismissing the claims of racism so regularly launched by per-sons of color, seeing as how the latter have no power to punish such disbelievers at the polls, or in the office suites, or in the schools in most cases.

On the other hand, people of color who refuse to buy into white reality—the "reality" of the U.S. as a "shining city on a hill, " or the "reality" of never-ending progress, or the "reality" of advancement by merit—often pay a heavy toll: they are marginalized, called "professional victims, " or accused of playing the race card.”

Honestly, I don't think the issue is white privilege per se, but the general concept of privilege as a means of establishing an imbalance in power and social mobility in any given society. Throughout history, there has been a tendency for the advantaged to downplay the plight of the disadvantaged, and this idea of attempting to diminish the severity of those who have more social and economic barriers in front of them is an ancient practice of unnecessary inequality. I make it a point to use the term "unnecessary inequality" because some inequality is necessary for the function of a society while other types of inequality are not.

These unnecessary forms of inequality (I trust I don't need to spell out examples of this) are perpetuated by those in a greater position of power so as to artificially create distance between themselves and those below them in a socially stratified arena. Deliberate ignorance and apathy are two of the best ways to encourage this line of thinking, which brings me to my next point.

I don't have a problem with certain advantageous people being born into a "better" situation (the term "better has dubious implications depending on the type of society we're dealing with). I do have a problem with people who actively deny the existence and propagation of invented elements of disharmony such as segregation, homophobia, the gender-based wage gap, etc. I won't crucify someone because they're a WASP, but don't tell me we live in a happy land of equal opportunity where racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, ageism and sectarian discrimination don't exist.

edited 19th Jan '12 5:42:49 PM by Aprilla

I think that the bold Peggy is making a lot of rather condescending leaps and assumptions.

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

Even better yet, the question might be, as straight white males, "what are we supposed to do about this?" This is not a rhetorical question but an honest one; half the things on that list aren't privileges that can be refused (I've no control over whether or not a financial institution chooses to show favor to me based off the fact that I'm white, for example), or even whether or not they are present...because again, a good portion of that list involves the beliefs of others.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

@2: The second paragraph of your post should help towards averting some very predictable and useless directions that this thread could take; thank you for posting it!

Now I just hope people won't skip over it...

edited 19th Jan '12 5:36:29 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

How so?

Exactly my point. Now that I've realized this, it bothers me a lot and I want to fix it. I just have no clue how I could make it just a little better.

Yes, I like that one as well. Nice find!

edited 19th Jan '12 5:37:40 PM by Firebert

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@Firebert: I gave an example already. If a financial institution decides to show me favoritism during, say, the selection process for a loan because I am white and male...how am I to know about, much less refuse, their "beneficial racism" towards me?

EDI Ted for clarity.

edited 19th Jan '12 5:39:38 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I saw you did, I was agreeing with you. My question was how we can prevent such things from being so likely (which, admittedly, I can't think up a solution to myself, hence my asking ). I understand we can't always know when something's helping us simply on our race, I just wish it weren't such a prevalent possibility.

edited 19th Jan '12 5:42:29 PM by Firebert

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@Firebert: well, see, that's the problem that bedevils the "White Privilege" argument on both sides. If it exists, you can't prove it...but no one can prove it does or doesn't exist as a practical matter when it comes up for an individual. If I walk around assuming that every good thing that happens to me happens because I'm white and male (which by extension means I didn't earn them, since both were an accident of birth), it's destructive to my self-esteem and insulting to the people around me (since I'm assuming that they are racist without any evidence).

Conversely, if I walk around and say "lalala, everyone's equal, racism doesn't exist", that doesn't really work either...because no doubt some of the advantages I enjoy were spawned by racist attitudes, that doesn't advance the cause of tolerance or equality.

The issue as I see it is separating the sheep from the goats. I don't know how any person is supposed to do that.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I never really quite understood the term "white privilege".

A privilege is usually held up as something that can be taken away if someone is doing wrong. White people in this case are certainly doing wrong.

But aren't these things listed things that should be basic things for everyone, therefore making everyone equal, not something that should be "taken away" from a group of people to make everyone equal?

Yeah, that really is a problem. The worst part about it is how ingrained it is in our society.

To be honest, I couldn't think of a better term to replace the established one with. White rights would fit, I suppose, though it's pretty much the same thing.

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Why can't they just be considered basic human rights, and drop the race angle entirely? By continuing to call it white privilege, or white rights, it's turning this into an "Us vs Them" thing, and that doesn't help anyone.

The things in that list should be afforded to everyone equally, and recognizing that some people have been allowed to exercise those rights more than others shouldn't be a blacks vs whites/straights vs gays/polygamous vs monogamous/men vs women sort of issue. It should be treated as a social issue. We need to recognize that discrimination is bad regardless of who it's targeted at.

Edit, for example:

Why should it be considered worse for a black guy to be considered financially insecure because they "look black" than a white guy to be considered financially insecure because they "look like a redneck"?

It's the same thing, regardless of who it's directed towards.

And I'm going to leave it at that, because any time I voice these opinions, I tend to start a flame war.

edited 19th Jan '12 6:11:11 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Very true. These rights should be free to everyone. The only reason I and others used this label is because, unfortunately, only whites are guaranteed these by society. It's disgusting and unfair, and everything on that list (and everything not mentioned) should be enjoyed by everyone. The fact that they aren't says something awful about our current society.

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Except they're not. People are not a hivemind, nor are people who are superficially similar treated the same way.

Continuing to believe that way is a racist thought in and of itself, and it discriminates against both minorities and majorities.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

The concept of "privilege" is misguided in so very, very many ways that I can't begin to touch them all here. The main highlights, though, are: 1) it denies that humans can empathize with one another; 2) it claims appealing to a "privileged" group for better treatment is bad, when that's how marginalized groups have always gotten better treatment; 3) the definitions of "privilege" are ossified - women definitely have some societal advantages over men, but point them out and you're a flaming misogynist; and 4) it's the one legitimate way in this society to say "you were born wrong, so sit down and shut up", and there should not be an acceptable way to say that.

A point-by-point of the actual items on the list:

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

This assumes that race has meaning.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

This assumes racism - virulent racism, not Avenue Q racism - in just about everybody.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

This is a question of class, not race.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

Because people in good neighborhoods hate ethnic minorities. Everyone knows that.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

We could also call this "non-teenage privilege". It's uncomfortable, but blacks/teenagers do actually do a lot more shoplifting.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

See #1. There are just a lot of white people in America, okay?

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization, " I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

A race doesn't get a lot of opportunity to contribute to civilization when its face is being rubbed into the dirt. The opportunities happen and get recognition, but history doesn't change to suit your tastes.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

I think that's everyone.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

Do non-whites have trouble finding publishers? Is that a thing? What?

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

I think it's a fairer bet with the one minority than with the one white person. As I say, there are a lot of white people. If there's an almost-all-black or almost-all-Hispanic congregation, odds are it's about race, and the one white person might not get taken so seriously.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

Whites are much more self-conscious about this stuff than other folks, in my experience.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

I've never seen a music shop without ethnic music or a supermarket without ethnic food (and that counts supermarkets in very white neighborhoods.) The hairdresser bit, though - yeah, that's a problem for black people I know. So, that's two so far: extra scrutiny at stores and hairdressers who don't know how to deal with you. OPPRESSION!

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

Who the hell takes checks from anyone these days?

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

If your child is in middle school, the answer is always no. I thought we were talking about race, anyway, not popularity.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

In elementary school, I was beaten up by black kids for being white and in the gifted program. (Which program, incidentally, was about 60% black.) It was encouraged by the white principal because he had a bug up his arse about the existence of said program, so I think that's systemic. I may add that being aware of it didn't help me in the slightest.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

"School norms" include a lot of insane sensitivity rules, in case you haven't known anybody in K-12 for the past decade or so. And seriously, who are these white people making the minorities worry so badly?

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

Does this happen?

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

I don't know about swearing, hand-me-downs and not answering letters, but yeah, okay, a black guy who can't spell is treated more racially than a white guy is.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

Why are we specifying that the powerful group is male? Anyway, your race isn't part of the issue until you make race an issue. The Juan Williams-NPR fracas had nothing to do with the color of his skin, and everyone knows it.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

This is applied to folks like Jaime Escalante who break out of the internally self-imposed The-Man-is-out-to-get-us-why-bother crap.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

True. On the other hand, I do get a lot of "you'll never understand because you're a rich white male" online, and the "white" part is the only one that's actually true.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

Privilege for people not of Chinese descent, I guess. Romans do what they do; if I do manage moving to Switzerland if it comes down to Obama and Santorum or something, I'll have seriously boned up on my French.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

From my debate history here, I'm pretty sure half of you see me as a bunker-dwelling, vagrant-stomping loony without race ever entering into the conversation. Statism is in.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

Weirdly, a vast majority of the honchos in my company are Hispanic women. I'm pretty sure this doesn't illustrate a preferential policy; it just happened that way. But again, there are a lot of white people, and the trend of voluntarily giving up in the face of largely-imagined oppression doesn't help.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

Third legitimate problem on the list.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

Don't want to sound like a broken record here.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

Extrovert privilege?

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

Politically correct office policy says the opposite.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

Bzuh?

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

"Privilege" is all about how people of color have more credibility on racial issues than white people do.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

Have you never seen the shitstorm that results when public figures disparage these programs? Even when they're downright evil shit like CAIR?

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

Poor upbringing privilege?

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

Maybe as a contribution to the aforementioned shoplifting thing.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

Does "smug" count as "self-interested or self-seeking"?

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

Hey, maybe that's why affirmative action is counterproductive?

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

Non-paranoid privilege?

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

I think everyone can answer yes to this one.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

Ditto.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

Does this happen? Seriously?

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

Public accommodation? You mean like housing projects? Because if you live in a housing project, you will be mistreated, full stop.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

Okay, yes, criminal representation. Minorities do commit more of the crimes, but this also biases the juries in turn. Fourth legitimate issue, second or third serious one.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

WHO ARE THESE WHITE PEOPLE YOU SPEAK OF

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

I think this is an Obama thing, so here you go.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

Yep, there's a "White Studies" program in every university. And don't tell me that "Western Civ" qualifies; when minorities contribute, we acknowledge this.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

Poetic bias. That's really random.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

True as far as bandages go, but god, that's trivial.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

Not-travelling-to-places-that-don't-speak-languages-you-are-fluent-in-or-Newark privilege.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

Class, again.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

This is about black single parenting, I guess. That's proven to be worse for the kids. Deal.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

Unless you're the raving paranoid people of color are assumed to be on this test.

Okay, that was entirely too much time to spend on that. Ah well.

Hail Martin Septim!

That's the thing though. "Only whites are guaranteed this" but a privilege is not a guarantee.

Also, I cannot find bandages pale enough to match my skin tone.

edited 19th Jan '12 6:20:58 PM by ohsointocats

This article was in one of my text books. I found it eye opening, personally. I hope one day any race or sex can claim these rights, but until then, I think it's interesting to know that even now there is a difference between how people are viewed.

edited 19th Jan '12 6:21:55 PM by MrAHR

Read my stories!

I always feel weird when this discussion comes up, since I can pass for white. I can try to argue "I'm not white, so I'm not an oppressor," but I still benefit from all the same things whites benefit from.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

Perks, to the small extent that they exist, do not make you an oppressor. Good lord, the demonization.

Hail Martin Septim!

I wouldn't call us oppressors at all, just a majority that receives extra perks for being the majority.

edited 19th Jan '12 6:34:17 PM by Firebert

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I'm still curious to know what the proponents of white privilege would have the individual do in his daily life to counteract it.

That's not always true, Firebert. I've said this in other threads on the same topic; I am not in the majority in the neighborhood in which I live (Hispanic is the majority). So, a good portion of that list does not apply to my situation. I've lived here for almost 7 years and I don't know any of my neighbors, because they do not talk to me.

edited 19th Jan '12 6:36:28 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I'd really like to know that as well. It'd be nice to decrease my discomfort and tip things a little more towards true equality.

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I guess the biggest step would be to stop being uncomfortable. That's not a white or black or Asian you're talking to, it's a human being. The way people end up being treated equally is that you set out to treat them equally. Messing about with pendulums will only create more problems down the road.

edited 19th Jan '12 6:40:11 PM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!

Well, this is the problem with the whole argument; as a statistical phenomenon it's hard to debate, but its presence in an individual's life is impossible to identify when it shows up in a day-to-day situation.

To expand on the example that I brought up earlier; when I applied for my house loan, the officer who ended up approving me was white, male and straight. *

He was also of my age group, and we discovered we'd interacted during our high school years a bit and swapped a few stories from that time before settling down to the business at hand.

At the time, I had good credit (note that this was 2004, when banks were approving anyone with a pulse for a loan, but let's leave that aside for the nonce) and a stable, well-paying job as did my wife. We were approved without difficulty for a reasonable rate.

Now. Was I approved because I was white, straight and male (as was my officer), was I approved because of my personal connection with my loan officer, or was I approved because my wife and I had good jobs/decent credit? The answer to all of the above is "yes". And that's the problem.

If the proponents of the "white privilege" theory are correct -and statistically speaking they are- , what was I supposed to do here? How was I to deny the extra privilege being granted to me because of my race, gender and/or sexual preference if I wanted to? How am I supposed to combat something I cannot even detect the presence of when its happening? The possibility exists that the loan officer was showing preferential treatment to me because of our similar race/gender/orientation...but an equal possibility exists that he wasn't and there's no way for me to have known.

Which points up the basic weakness of flogging "White Privilege"; The individual white has no method of identifying specific occurrences of this privilege, and no way of refusing them...because they are based in the thoughts and actions of others rather than himself. I don't know about others, but speaking for myself, cool Jedi tricks like telepathy and mind control are not included in the Caucasian purview.

All pointing this phenomenon out really accomplishes is to polarize and divide people...when its not making them feel guilty for factors outside their control, of course. How does this advance the cause of equality?

edited 19th Jan '12 7:36:31 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I think "white privilege" is inaccurate.

It would be better called "middle/upper-class white privilege."

In any case, the basic principle is largely true.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."