The Christianity Thread

So, we should refrain from talking about "core things in Christianity" in order to avoid offending unbelievers? In the Christianity thread?. Does this mean that, to make things fair, I get to ask unbelievers to stop talking as if God did not exist, because that hurts my feelings?

Or does it only matter when atheists get offended, and it does not matter as much when George Carlin (I think) says textually that "religion is bullshit?"

Or should we stop talking about religion or non-religion altogether, all for the sake of not hurting feelings? This is unacceptable.

If someone thinks that my beliefs are wrong, or unjustified, or barbaric, I want them to tell me. I want to be preached at. Perhaps I will agree, and perhaps I will not; but truth matters more than my feelings, or yours, or anyone's.

In any case, I don't know how else to put it. If you are an unbeliever, but you are a genuinely good and charitable person, you might be very close to the entity I call God. If you go to Church six times per day, but you are an asshole, you might be very far from Him.

This, of course, presuming that the entity I call God exists — if He doesn't, the whole discussion is moot.

edited 22nd Nov '11 2:36:23 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Yes. And I guess that's the point.

The problem with religion comes down to one word. Privilege. The privilege is the problem. Honestly I couldn't care less what anybody believes...to a point...

As an aside, Sam Harris (who is a VERY outspoken atheist) takes a lot of flak, but he has one really good thing to say. Religion means something. There's a lot of people out there who pretend that it doesn't but it does. What one believes shapes the way, either drastically or subtlety, it's not always the same..that we look at the world.

And the truth is, it's actually more respectful towards religion to actually take what people say at face value and assume that it means something as opposed to assuming that it doesn't mean something.

As such, it does matter what people believe. Be it religion, politics, whatever.

In any case, the problem is the privilege. The problem is the double-standard. Religious beliefs are often offensive, yet when people criticize religion, we pillory them for being offensive. Like it or not, it's pretty much a mirror.

And maybe we shouldn't do that. But why are we here in the first place?

But yes. The problem is the privilege. And the first step for it is acknowledging it and owning it. And along those lines, I think you guys owe Lawyer an apology.

edited 22nd Nov '11 2:37:00 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve

Um.

I don't know where YOU'RE talking about, but people bash religion/atheists/Muslims/Christians/Buddists/etc ALL THE TIME. It's pretty fair, actually. Have you considered that you're just seeing a biased view of it? I used to think that Christian beliefs were unfairly singled out, but then I realize I just wasn't hanging out in the places where other religions, or lacks of one, got the same treatment. Please, drop the martyr complex and THINK.

edited 22nd Nov '11 2:39:06 PM by Katrika

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

If I were very easily offended, I wouldn't be here.

Yes, I've read several Christian thinkers. About the only one that I've found any resonance with is John Shelby Spong. I don't accept all his beliefs, but I think that he at least approaches the issues seriously and has a good head on his shoulders.

But in any case, I'm not requesting that all my questions be answered here. I have plenty more that I haven't raised. All I'm asking is for a comprehensible and direct explanation of a fundamental premise of Christianity. And in the years that I've been looking for one, I still haven't found it.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

ah. And that's all, is it? Will you be taking the moon while you're at it?

=P

edited 22nd Nov '11 2:43:15 PM by Katrika

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

What is "we"? I don't think I said anything implying that people who believe things I disagree with should just shut up.

At the moment, forgive me if I say this, it is you who is saying that I should shut up for fear of offending you.

Why? I do not think that I attacked Lawyer, either directly or indirectly. We disagree, obviously, but as far as I can see my discussion with him has been entirely civil, on both sides.

It may be the case that I am mistaken, and, if so, I will of course apologize to him; but as far as I could see, we were having a perfectly decent — if pleasantly spirited — discussion until you came telling me to shut up.

edited 22nd Nov '11 2:54:05 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

I neither need nor want anybody asking for apologies on my behalf.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

But anyway, Lawyer, I get what you're saying, but I think if you haven't found a possible answer that satisfies you yet, perhaps it's on the incomprehensibility level of the Trinity. Doesn't mean you should stop looking, but honestly, I got nothing. It's one of the things I tend to take on faith and shunt off to the side while I concentrate on other aspects, which...might not really be a good thing, but at least I AM trying to see other sides?

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

Look at whatever sides you want. But I think that one's own deepest-held beliefs are the ones that should be examined the closest. If your beliefs can't stand up to scrutiny under a microscope, are they really worth holding on to?

Anyway, I'll be off for a few hours. Check in again later.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

No, I agree. It's just that as far as I can tell, it's not that it's BAD or GOOD, it's just...weird.

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

@All pleasure comes from God thingie: I seriously cannot comprehend this without the notion that we are automatons being pitied. Which I consider an insult to mankind.

On the other hand, this could be used to diminish God into nothing more than a force of nature. Goes both ways, really.

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult

Karmakin, are you seriously saying "Stop talking about Christianity in the Christianity thread! It offends me!"

If you don't want to hear about this stuff, don't go to the Christianity thread. And if you don't think we should be talking about Christianity on this site at all, go ask a mod to lock the thread - but you can't complain about people using a thread for its intended purpose.

edited 22nd Nov '11 3:45:45 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

Speaking as a mild*

antitheist, I can't say I've found anything posted since I last chimed in in this thread offensive in the least. If anything, Carciofus is one of the most eminently bloody reasonable people on this damn site

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

"Basically, just because you don't believe in Him, doesn't mean He doesn't believe in YOU."

As you do not represent all religious people, I will not ask you to speak on behalf of them, but why do you personally feel that your God is everyone's God? Why can't God have a personalized avatar for every believer and nonbeliever, and function in accordance with their needs and wants, and not require faith from those who do not possess it?

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Honestly, Kach? If I could really believe that, I'd be down with it, but I just can't. A lot of the reason I dislike the 'all religions are right' train of thought it because it seems like it's trying to be too hard to be unoffensive, at the cost of offensively cleansing the unique and contradictory-with-other-religions aspects of, well, religion!

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

The only reason you're dancing to the tune of this particular religion is that you were born in its tradition. It might be natural for you to conceptualize Jesus as God, but this is not a gut feeling - it's nurture.

"All religions are right" has nothing to do with inoffensiveness. Plenty of religious people subscribe to it. It's simply accepting that different places and times have different approaches to God. Privileging one as something right for you is fine; privileging it as universally right is quite arrogant and, I have to say, pretty fucking ignorant as well.

edited 22nd Nov '11 5:22:26 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

All religions are right (in their mythologies) is contradictory. All religions have people for which they are the right solution seems far more accurate.

Ironically, your issues with this reminds me of something I've been thinking. The Roman persecution is painted as a pretty terrible thing, and it probably WAS, but it's important to remember that from the Roman perspective, Christians were arrogant dicks. Romans tended to handle the whole 'empire made of several different religious solutions' by going 'YOUR GOD IS INVITED TO OUR GOD PARTY! LET'S ALL WORSHIP TOGETHER!', and Christians went out and said 'hell naw you're all wrong now convert and be cleansed', and that didn't jive.

Just interesting, I figured.

That being said! A big part of my personal belief is that you can't FORCE anyone to believe anything, and you can't even force yourself. However, I suppose if push came to internal shove, I'd hold my belief that God knows best over my belief in the precise trappings of christianity, and accept that in His wisdom He showed himself in many different forms and the God I know is only one of them, and not even the first. However, I'm not there.

Furthermore, for people of other religions, I believe their faith is just as valid and important to them as mine is for me, and they're equally convinced that they're in the right and I'm not. It's a tricky situation for which I've decided the only good solution is mutual respect and willingness to learn about the other religion, in order to understand it, even if you personally do not and cannot believe it.

I'm sorry if this is a disrespectful approach, because that's the last thing I want to be! I think it is very tempting to let your personal beliefs erode under the sweet narcotic of 'everyone can be right and happy', but sometimes that's not true! I would rather live in a world where people can hold firm to their different beliefs but respect others then one where all beliefs are made homogenous and bland!

As well, many people end their lives with a different religion than they started with. I think it's very condescending of you to imply that I'm only Christian because I grew up as one, when for all you know I was raised religiously jewish!

edited 22nd Nov '11 5:44:44 PM by Katrika

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

Many people, though not nearly enough, see their mythologies as metaphors, not history.

To your second point, although we perceive the Roman religion as a fairly monolithic one, with a specifically organized pantheon, individual worship did not take that direction. People followed their own mystery cults (the specifics tenets of which we tend not to know, as most of the cults were very exclusive), and were used to everyone and their mother having a different religion from themselves. Early Christians threatened the institution of exclusivity; it had nothing to do with them being arrogant or otherwise.

Thinking that different religious approaches work for different people =/= homogenous and bland.

edited 22nd Nov '11 5:46:46 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

That is not what I'm saying. I think perhaps we're not communicating properly?

Ah, but thanks for clarifying the Roman thing. I had the right general idea but the wrong details.

edited 22nd Nov '11 5:46:15 PM by Katrika

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

"I think it's very condescending of you to imply that I'm only Christian because I grew up as one, when for all you know I was raised religiously jewish!"

The very upbringing in the Jewish religion precludes conceptualizing God, salvation, piety, morality, and unquestioning faith in the typically Christian way. You could be the odd apostate, but I rather doubt it.

Could you clarify what I'm missing, though, because I'm not getting where the homogeneity would come from?

edited 22nd Nov '11 5:50:17 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

While I wouldn't use the term "religion" here, I would agree that different philosophies should be applied to different people. With that said, it's often more useful to act based on your own philosophy only when attempting to help yourself, and to act based on someone else's philosophy when attempting to help them. (Of course, problems arise when someone else's philosophy necessarily encroaches on yours—or, for that matter, when someone else's philosophy is stupid.)

I think this relates to Carc's whole thing about sin separating people from God—sinning against a given philosophy separates you from that philosophy. However, I think you can still be happy if you're following some philosophy (again, not necessarily a religion), even if you're sinning against other ones.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

Religion is more then a philosophy, Kash, and to me saying 'all religions are equally right' belittles them by painting over the many firmly hammered in core concepts that can't all be true when you look at all religions as a whole. I'm not even talking about the 'first there was God and he made the universe in 7 days' vs a creation myth I'm not so familiar type stuff. I'm talking...

You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or the earth and waters below. You shall not bow your heads and worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of their fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. - Exodus 20:3-6

...type incompatibility. It's not a pretty part of Christianity. It's not a pretty aspect of God. It doesn't seem good, and it most certainly doesn't seem Good. But it's there, and I think it's a disservice to whitewash it.

edited 22nd Nov '11 6:09:13 PM by Katrika

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

Is there a reason you're unable to view it as saying "don't profess to believe in one God and worship another"? It's about being steadfast in your faith, through thick and thin, instead of deciding that this isn't the religion for you as soon as you're up shit creek and coming back to it when everything is sunny.

edited 22nd Nov '11 6:10:39 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

I could, except sadly it's hammered in even further by Jesus, with his 'I am the true and only path to God' thing.

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

Only in the gospels privileged by the early church writers and NT compilers. Besides, reaching God through Jesus should be about emulating his behavior as much as believing in him as a persona.

edited 22nd Nov '11 6:17:58 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?