Torture - Ends Justifies The Means?

Indeed. For all under heaven.

w/r/t to torture as an intimidation tool: This would only achieve short-term pacification at the absolute best, and at worst would help convince the people who did support the torturer into supporting the tortured instead.

And that's still ignoring that we live in a world where information can reach an absolutely massive audience in minutes to hours, depending on the ode of delivery and importance of the information. A simple ill-advised tweet would be enough to make torture practices globally known. Since just about any modern nation is, for better or worse, dependent to a certain extent on foreign trade and good relations: this would be an absolute disaster.

So even if you ignore the ethical issues with torture, there's still absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

[insert pretension here]

North Korea has gulags, several South African states has torture as part of policy regarding conflict resolution, USA has Gitmo.

NO society, modern or ancient, can/has survived without some form of negative reinforcement to control.

edited 29th Jan '12 3:22:14 PM by Natasel

...are you forgetting that prisons exist? You don't need torture to 'control the populace.'

Besides, torture violates the Universal Declaration of human rights, Article 5.

And the eighth amendment to the US constitution.

edited 29th Jan '12 3:23:41 PM by kyfhv

Splitting hair.

Throw someone in a cage/camp/gulag/school or beat, electrocute, aggresively interogate.

Aim is same. Coersion.

But you don't need to torture someone to get information. It's completely unnecessary, interrogation works just fine.

You also didn't respond to me when I said torture was illegal under the US constitution, and violated the universal Declaration of human rights.

edited 29th Jan '12 3:30:32 PM by kyfhv

Torture is NOT just for interogation.

Not all the world is USA.

This universal declaration was signed before or after Gitmo?

North Korea sign this declaration? Russia? Congo? Happiologist?

edited 29th Jan '12 3:40:01 PM by Natasel

...what is it for, than?

What about the geneva convention's prohibiton of torture? What about the Universal decloration of human rights?

What about the fact that almost every democratic country on earth has laws making torture illegal?

Torture's main aim is pain. Benefits branch out depending on circumstances.

What about them?

ALMOST. Not all.

edited 29th Jan '12 3:44:06 PM by Natasel

So... North Korea, South Africa and the USA comprise the whole of the modern world now? I'm not sure how stating those three proves that we need torture.

Be not afraid...

ok? So how is torture justified if it causes lasting psycological damage, wheres prison and interrogation don't?

These laws exist because those countries are more progressive and democratic.

The countries that have them are almost universally not democratic, whereas countries where the population have a voice have laws against torture. In other words, just because some countries do it, doesn't mean others should. It's still illegal under international law.

edited 29th Jan '12 3:53:35 PM by kyfhv

They are justified because they work.

Legal, illegal, progressive, archaic. Not an issue. Justification.

Justification lends power not to the Law or the Times but the Individual who looks at a thing (Torture), and can say "Yes."

edited 29th Jan '12 3:59:35 PM by Natasel

Interrogation gets data just as well as torture does, if not better.

...That's a bad thing, especially because torture is sometimes used against people who have done nothing illegal, whereas interrogation has no lasting negetive effect.

Yes it is an issue. Progressive=progress. These countries have moved on from the past.

edited 29th Jan '12 4:01:53 PM by kyfhv

TORTURE IS NOT JUST FOR DATA.

Illegal is not an issue.

"Progressive" is misleading. Change, yes. Improvement? Hard to say.

Alternatives to torture exist, such as prison and interrogation, to name a few. Torture causes lasting psycological damage, whereas the alternatives don't.

Yes it is. It's illegal because many countries have seen why torture is outdated and immoral, and moved on. Progress=progressivism.

It's an improvement because it doesn't cause lasting psycological damage, and because alternatives to torture exist, like prison.

edited 29th Jan '12 4:07:32 PM by kyfhv

And if the End IS long lasting "psychological harm"?

That shouldn't be an aim. People who have committed no crime have been tortured before, wheras if an alternative was used, they would be fine. Lasting psychological harm shouldn't be an aim anyway, it's immoral.

Error message. Disregard.

edited 29th Jan '12 4:14:24 PM by Natasel

Yes it is. And you didn't respond to the fact that

edited 29th Jan '12 4:15:53 PM by kyfhv

The fact the tortured, innocent or guilty, are effected long after the torture is justification enough.

edited 29th Jan '12 4:19:04 PM by Natasel

No, it's not. That's immoral.

It's a cost to benefit decision to torture someone, and the reasons not to torture someone outweigh the reasons to torture someone.

edited 29th Jan '12 4:27:30 PM by kyfhv

Immoral and Unjustified are not equivalent.

Given the long history of torture, it is unlikely that no one ever thought to use a Cost/Benefit analysis on the practice.

That said, torture happens, has happnened and will likely continue to happen.

Torture benefits have outweighed cost.

edited 29th Jan '12 4:51:13 PM by Natasel

Yes they are.

Your right in that many, many countries have done cost/benefit analysis regarding torture. Notice how most democratic and progressive countries have laws prohibiting torture.

But it shouldn't continue to happen.

No they don't. examples of why torture is illegal and immoral:

Torture is immoral, because, well seriously just google 'torture methods' and you'll see why.

edited 29th Jan '12 5:16:03 PM by kyfhv

I can't find a way to read that statement as anything else than "Torture is good because it causes lasting psychological harm." so assuming that isn't what mean can you rephrase it for me?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

For my sanity's sake, I'm going to conclude from Natasel's posts (in this thread and others) that he is trolling us.