Death Note

You cannot kill indirectly with the Death Note.

"Whether the cause of the individual's death is either a suicide or accident, if the death leads to the death of more than the intended, the person will simply die of a heart attack. This is to ensure that other lives are not influenced."

What if you kill a guy driving a bus or something? Couldn't that conceivably kill his passengers?

But fair enough. My mistake.

I should have included this from rule XXVI also:

"Even though only one name is written in the Death Note, if it influences and causes other humans that are not written in it to die, the victim’s cause of death will be a heart attack"

They both boil down to "only the person who's name you wrote in the Death Note will die, and no one else." From that, I would personally extrapolate that the hypothetical bus driver would have to die only after the bus came to stop (or perhaps a more complicated contrivance if it needs to happen at a certain time). But this is only speculation. It is also conceivable that the passengers would die, I just doubt that's how it would work.

Well in any event my argument seems to have crumbled a bit.

I still maintain Soichiro or at least Aizawa should have killed Mello. I recall Mello having just as much plot armor as Light ever had.

But as for alternative methods of killing L or Near....I'm tapped for ideas. I don't know why Light didn't just ask Rem for help but I guess she never actually let on that she started to come around to his point-of-view.

It's also really weird, for all Light trusts Ryuk, he never asks Ryuk to do much. Ryuk wouldn't do it anyway but that's what I'm getting at. You would think Light would realize he had a wild card on his hand because Ryuk is the one constant in his life he exerts no control over. But he always had a blind spot towards the floating face of death and evil.

edited 26th Jun '16 5:11:18 AM by Nikkolas

You thought Light could control someone with the DN and make them a hitman? That's where this was coming from? That's explicitly impossible in several different ways. Not only can the form of death only kill the person whose name is written down, but ordering someone to locate Near (whose location even Light is unaware of) and kill him is an impossibility since it's not something the victim would know (remember Light's experiments with that sort of thing?). If Light wants to hire a hitman or a bomber or what have you, he's going to have to do it in person, which will create a paper trail which is exactly the sort of thing that Light is looking to avoid. I mean, "Kira suspect Light Yagami buys five hundred pounds of fertilizer?" That's gonna raise some eyebrows at the investigation.

Regarding the bus thing, he'd presumably either die while the bus was stopped, or crash but not harm anyone else (which while perhaps physically unlikely can be done once magic is in the equation).

EDIT: For the sake of this argument I just rewatched Soichiro's confrontation with Mello. And there is literally nothing else he could have done. I'd note that the only person who accuses him of being an idiot for not just killing Mello is Light. And since Light is a) a monster and b) doesn't care if any member of the task force walks out alive he's not exactly the best source of critique here. He and Soichiro have very different definitions of what winning looks like in this situation.

edited 26th Jun '16 9:42:24 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

You could use the Death Note to have someone plant a bomb that you hold the detonator to, though (unless there's something I'm forgetting).

That might work. But that person would still have to have access to L. Which means using one of the members of the task force and somebody is gonna notice that.

So what do people think of the DN live-action movies? Good/Bad? Gonna try and grab those the end of this week when I get paid. Either those or the anime DVD's.

Also I really like this picture.◊ It's part of what inspired my previous topic on the last page about Light enjoying the game of it all. I really don't think, had L never arrived, Light would have been happy.

Yes he would have. Light would have kept on murdering people and jerking off to his own greatness. Light doesn't enjoy games, he enjoys winning. Killing L was a way to prove his own superiority—he doesn't give a damn about how he gets there.

But he doesn't have anyone to prove his superiority to without L. He's a man playing with children. As I said before, Light himself specifically notes how bored he was after the timeskip and how excited he was Near was around.

Light thinks everyone should just accept his superiority as a fact. His end goal is to have a world where everyone prays to him about how wonderful and Christlike he is.

Light starts the series with universal adoration already - that's part of the problem. He is an effortless genius at everything, be it schoolwork or making people like him. He has absolutely no challenge in his life. We also know from WOG that, without the Death Note, Light would have gone on to be just as famous and respected as L. Even a the start he was a very self-assured person so it's reasonable to guess Light had no fears for his future success save for the singular fear that he was facing a long, hollow existence.

Then enters the Death Note, L and Near. Suddenly there's intrigue, real competition and a purpose to everything .

I don't know why you think Light wants to be worshiped - his initial attitude towards most people is disdain and that grows to complete murderous apathy over the series. He doesn't care about these peons.

I firmly believe, had L never shown up, Light would have self-destructed because all he's doing is replacing the boring routine of existence with the boring routine of Kira.

edited 27th Jun '16 4:59:58 PM by Nikkolas

People who don't want to be worshiped don't generally set themselves up as God. They don't generally go on and on (and on and on) about how they will run the world as God. Light's defining feature is a God complex and a belief that he absolutely has the right to do what he wants to whom he wants because he is so special.

If Light didn't care what people thought he'd be able to handle criticism. He can't. His murder of Lind L. Tailor stems director from Tailor pointing out that Light is a bad person, an accusation that Light simply is not emotionally equipped to process or deal with in any way that doesn't involve violence. Light believes that he is worthy of adoration, that his sheer amazingness exempts him from being critiqued, and anything that threatens that self-image is deal with as brutally as possible.

Light is a narcissist, and narcissists are, as a general rule, slaves to PR. They believe their own hype and they want everybody else to believe it too. If anyone challenges their idealized image of themselves they flip out, because it wounds their ego, and a wounded ego is not something that any narcissist can abide. Despite being vastly more intelligent, Light is, in this regard, no different from Joffrey Baratheon. If you damage his ego, he will lash out at the first possible moment.

Light doesn't relish challenge. Rather he relishes the credit he gets for overcoming challenges, and the ego-bolstering effects that come from the respect that it earns him. Light doesn't want to keep L and Near around so he can keep playing games with them, he wants them gone as quickly as possible so he can get back to building his perfect world. A world in which he is at the centre of it, and all reality orbits him. That's not the actions of a bored man. It's the actions of a self-obsessed one.

Except Light's identity as Kira is unknown and his triumph over L is equally unrecognized. What's more, he hands off "Kira" to other people like Mikami. Mikami then begins to "misrepresent" Kira and it doesn't make Light absolutely lose his shit or anything. Mikami could have forever tainted "Kira."

Light wants to be a god because gods are the ones who reign supreme over the world and order all things according to their whim, not because he cares about what a bunch of idiots think of him.Does he have a fragile ego to the extent he can't handle criticism particularly well? Yes but that is a far cry removed from actively trying to win people over. t Light wasn't the one who started the cult, he just did his thing and then found the supporters of Kira online. He never tried to recruit followers or support. No one is disputing Light is a narcissist but that just means he naturally thinks everyone will and must love him and he probably doesn't give it much thought besides that. "Everyone loves me and thinks I'm great" is right there in the back of his mind next to "I need oxygen to breathe." It's just a given.

Tell me then - remove L and any possible L-level threats from the scenario. Hell, also remove Misa. Everything goes as perfect as Light could ever have dreamed. Do you really think Light would enjoy his reign as Kira?

What then is the entire point of the start of the series; of the bored kid who needs something that actually challenges his intellect?

EDIT:

The thing here is, we all agree Light likes to gloat. But if Naomi or L or whoever else never appeared, Light would have no one to gloat to. His genius would go unappreciated and all his need to validate or justify himself would just build up more and more and more.

You and Tobias draw this odd distinction that I just can't understand. "Light likes to win but he doesn't like competition." Those two things necessitate one another as far as I'm concerned.

edited 28th Jun '16 12:52:47 AM by Nikkolas

If there's no L, Light doesn't have time to "get bored" because Ryuk will get bored first and murder his ass.

And please note—Light managed the five years without L just fine. He's not happy for another challenge, he's offended that Near and Mello are even trying.

Except thats not an odd distinction at all...

Winning and Competition don't go hand in hand. Some people play for the challenge... others simply want the acknowledge meant of their victory.

There is a reason the term/idea of "Poor Winner" exists

or if you've played any fighting game online, you'll be familiar with the idea that if they've got a 30 win streak... They disconnect the moment it appears they can't beat you, Why... to preserve their win streak. -if the server only counts completed matches and discounts disconnects or the more petty reason, They don't want to give you the affirmation that you beat them and broke their streak. These people tend to use 'broken' characters / or strats that will wreck a newcomer but against someone who knows how to play the game.. will expose them for the one trick pony they are.

or in RP Gs where that group of level 60s Fully decked out basically camp a level 30 zone and beat the crap out of the newbies for PVP points

Winning =/= Enjoying Competition

Light is that Asshole in an online FPS that cashed for all the really good guns off the bat, and then uses various hacks and mods so his bullets instakill, home and go through cover while also given himself a larger health pool, near instant health regeneration, unlimited, ammo, armor and grenades... Also he's invisible. Fly and no clip through the floor.

and then legitimately thinks his Massive K/D ratio is a testament to his skill

edited 28th Jun '16 3:33:41 PM by FrozenWolf2

That's a really faulty analogy. Light doesn't think he's playing fair, for one thing. He's a god playing with morons - where's the point in being fair? Plus, as I've said several times but you people refuse to acknowledge the facts, Light was the one who truly understood the power of the Death Note. In spite of Ryuk's own secrecy or stupidity, Light discovered its powers and limits through his own brilliance and tenacity. So it be more accurate to say Light invented those codes he used after extensive study.

Light actually says outright he's excited about Near showing up. There's also the earlier panel I posted. This looks like a happy person, not an annoyed one.◊

Life is alll about dichotomies. There is no good without evil, winners without losers. Light needs L, Near and Mello if he wants to feel like a winner. If he wants to truly savor victory, he has to actually defeat someone.

edited 28th Jun '16 3:53:26 PM by Nikkolas

Reading it as well it's not really happy more like smug. Light isn't looking forward to to having opponents, just wanting to put them in their place.

What in the world is the difference for someone like Light Yagami between being happy and putting people in their place while proving his own superiority? Given his tendency to gloat, I don't think there's anything else Light loves more than to prove his superiority.

edited 28th Jun '16 10:32:03 PM by Nikkolas

I think if L never showed up, Light would have been happy putting the rest of the world in its place. I mean, going against the whole world is enough to make even Light feel smug. After his fight with L, though... I think being Kira was starting to feel less interesting and more like routine for Light. Which is probably a big part of the reason why he was planning on starting killing "lazy" people like Mikami suggested, I think.

That's a very good possibility. Perhaps without L Light would have been content with his godhood. But after L, after the one person he seemed to regard as an intellectual peer had been vanquished, going back to just manipulating a world full of foolishly foolish fools might have lost its charm.

I hope no one is getting the impression I'm defending Light on the grounds of his virtue - by Part 2 he had most assuredly lost anything even superficially noble about him. I just think the beginning is important and relevant all the way to the end. Light needs something to stimulate his mind and without that excitement, especially after L had given it to him, I don't think he could truly enjoy the role of godhood because even godhood becomes bland and boring when you do it enough. That's all I'm getting at. Even if Light had won at the warehouse and crime rates continued to drop, Light was psychologically damaged beyond salvation by this point. With no opposition, with the world bowing to his whim, he would have still kept on killing people, possibly in increasingly flagrant or unnecessary ways because it would be the only way to keep his interest up.

It's also possible that sooner or later being Kira would have become routine anyway. In the end, what Light actually wanted (even if he himself never realized it) was something that could make him feel strong emotions. In another world, maybe he would have become addicted to gambling and his life would have ended with a round of russian roulette. :P

edited 29th Jun '16 1:37:26 AM by Cozzer

Or, as Ohba himself tells us, he would have become like L and found his fulfillment through being the world's greatest detective.

But yes, I'm glad I've found some agreement with someone on this matter. :)

EDIT:

Hey looky here Lonely at the Top

" Subverted in Death Note, where Light is shown to betray anyone and everyone in order to get to the top and become the god of the new world. One would expect that in the end, everyone is shown realizing this and turning against him - however, it is shown that even years after his death, there are still many worshipers who greatly mourn his death. It's implied that successfully killing L has left Light bored and depressed, because good ol' L was the only person as smart as Light (and thus one of the few people he could relate to on any level). The sheer joy he expresses when he thinks he's found a replacement for L, and the rage he expresses when the new L doesn't live up to his expectations add to this interpretation."

Apparently I am remembering things correctly.

edited 29th Jun '16 5:47:30 AM by Nikkolas

As I prepare to watch the DN anime at last, I want to comment on something and then ask something.

L's Themes vs Near's Themes

I've always preferred Near's Themes but I've never really thought about why. L's Themes are so....they're just not as intense as Near's. It's hard to describe what kind of tone or mood they set up. Do you guys have any thoughts on what the themes say about the respective characters?

But the real question I have is - how do you think L and Near stack up as people? Who was more morally sound? Or are they about equal?

Also, I saw a lot of explanations for Near's Scrappy status when I first came to this thread but you know what the real reason probably is? The first thing he does is instantly shit on the character he's replacing. Yeah, that was always gonna go over real well, having a Replacement Goldfish who actively attacked his forerunner who was INSANELY POPULAR and before said goldfish had done anything at all to make you give a shit about them.

Netflix & Adam Wingard’s Death Note Movie Begins Filming

I really don't know how to feel about this Netflix show, and "Light Turner" is 4kids level of Americanizing and pun creating. However, the idea of L being played by a black man is intriguing, and I have no real reason to assume it'll be bad out the gate. I'll give the first episode a shot when it comes out.