Depth and Skill in Fighters

I have a confession to make: I don't like Street Fighter. I don't like any of the games, and I don't like any of the games similar to them. I've tried getting into them on multiple occasions, but no matter how many times I try, I just give up.

I have another confession to make....I play anime fighters. I've played about every Naruto Ultimate Ninja game on the PS 2. I've played both Naruto Ninja Storm games on PS 3. The reason I played these, was because my little brother was a big naruto fan, so these are the fighting games we'd play together. I've also played Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 3, and really enjoyed it.

So while going through some forums about Naruto Ultimate Ninja 2, wondering if I should rent it again, I came across something.

Apparently those games take no skill.

I never really thought about it, but this seems to be the opinion of everyone on the internet really. I'll admit, the games do have some exploitable mechanics. But the thing I always loved about these games, was that once both people found out about them, it took the game to a whole new strategic level. But there's one question that bugs me right now....

Why do games like "Street Fighter" seem to be regarded as games of skill, simply because of the great difficulty and dedication required to pull of these moves? I think that's why I could never get into these games.....the amount of memorization, dedication, and pain in my fingers was always a road block then I didn't find worth overcoming.

So what do you guys think? What is skill in a fighting game? Are these games easier to get into then I make them out to be? Do these kinds of anime games lack the depth of skill that other fighters have?

edited 12th Sep '11 12:15:27 AM by ViralLamb

Well, for the two games you listed, I'd consider Ultimate Ninja Storm an example of a good fighting game, and Budokai Tenkaichi 3 to... not be one.

Mostly because rushdowns and pressure are far too broken in that game, with not enough to balance it out, which eliminates the need for anything beside rushing at your opponent at full speed at the beginning of the game and whaling on them incessantly without break - whoever hits first wins, usually, as attempts to escape are not reliable.

Bad balances, see? The skill in gameplay is lacking because it all boils down to one action.

Ninja Storm, on the other hand, is one of the few anime fighting games I've played that I can unflinchingly say is also a good fighting game - there are few actions a player can take that are inherently superior to others, few moves that are broken and unfair, and even the steps a player can take to make themselves more of a threat require risk and can be countered. It's a game with good balances:

Good balances make it so you need to use what you have with skill and intelligence, so you can effectively counter your opponent.

Street Fighter, depending on the game, isn't generally long combo based - you might be thinking of games like Blaz Blue of Mv C 2. SF 3 is the closest thing the series gets to that, and even then not so much - it's more about getting through your opponent's game - Street Fighter tends to have a lot of balances, so a single-minded strategy tends to fail whereas a skill at reliably using one's assets to deal with what your opponent can throw at you becomes effective.

I have too long questioned the competitiveness or "skill" of memorizing a long algorithm of actions with little innovation, but that is precisely why I like SFIV so much - it's about openings and outdoing, not so much memorizing combos and doing the same thing every time.

edited 12th Sep '11 12:31:57 AM by KnownUnknown

Well, its more about the "How the fuck do I pull of this move without skinning my fingers raw while practicing" thing. I just can't reliably pull of most moves, without failing most of the time, and I just can't do anything without knowing what weird shit to do, and trying my darndest to actually doing it before the enemy punches me in the face.

edited 12th Sep '11 12:56:14 AM by ViralLamb

Fighting games in the SF mold (those which use circle motions for special attacks) have their roots in the arcades, so they're best played with arcade sticks. In that situation there's not too much relative movement between your palm/fingers and the ball of the stick so skinning doesn't happen unless you deliberately try to make fire.

Trying to make the same motion on a D-Pad obviously requires a player to rub a thumb all over the buttons, which, well, you know... Not sure if newer fighters allow thumbstick input but switching to that if a game has it should help avoid skinning.

Ironically enough, I don't don't rubbing my fingers all over the d pad while doing specials or supers.

Its doing CHARGE moves on them that piss my off the most.

Well, some people can glide their thumbs over the D-Pad instead of rubbing until they get blisters but I can't without wrapping my thumb in fabric first. The alternative is the claw which I never found comfortable enough to use for long.

edited 12th Sep '11 5:14:55 AM by Recon5

Advice for making the Arcade Fighter Motions easier on your thumbs...

-If playing a PS 3, use less pressure with your left thumb in order to prevent wrecking it on the hard plastic between the points of the D-pad. I developed this skill myself over very much practice time.

-If playing a 360, use no pressure with your left thumb at all because the terribad D-pad WILL wreck your fingers, no matter what.

-If playing a Wii, I recommend... uh, I'm not sure. Gamecube controller's D-pad seems like the same advice would apply as with the PS 3 D-pad.

-As an alternative to any of the above, borrow a fight stick from one of your friends who owns one and see if it works for you. (It won't at the start, but with practice you can learn not to put in a bunch of unintentional jump inputs; generally, the trick is to not swing up too far unless you're sure you want to jump.)

-Detection on the sticks of normal controllers is wonky as hell, so don't use them unless you like frustration.

That aside, feel free to hate on SFIV as much as you please. I don't like it either, even though I did enjoy most of the other 2D fighters I've tried.

Hm, not quite the discussion I was hoping for.

One of the fighting series I actually really enjoy is Dead Or Alive.

Yes, laugh at me if you want.

But the fighting side of it actually is a ton of fun, using different moves to counter the opponent and setting up different attacks. It's not nearly as combo based but still awsome.

Dead Or Alive is fun but would be better if it weren't for the retarded counter system.

Hm, dead or alive sounds familiar....or wait I'm thinking of Tekken, which I played as a child....can't really remember that game, though I remember it was different from normal fighters.

"Depth" and "skill" are slippery concepts...

I think for a game to be competitive it has to be pretty good at separating better players from worse players—in other words, it can't have an amazingly low skill ceiling like Tic Tac Toe or be so chance-dependent that the results of matches and tournaments are arbitrary. And you should be able to train at it to get better.

But given these general constraints, no game requires more skill than another....a competitive game's only as difficult as your opponent.

I don't know about the second Naruto game, but I think the third Naruto game has a very high skill ceiling. A beginning player won't even realize that certain strategies exist, let alone know how best to use them. (Of course, this means the game's a bit boring unless you're really good at it and are playing against someone who's also really good at it . . .)

What's the second Naruto Game you're talking about? And whats the third you're talking about?

So true. At a certain point, the computer is just not enough for a challenge even on highest difficulty. Playing Naruto Shippuden Ninja Storm 2 with my brother is awesome, cuz he can adapt and play like the computer never can. Perhaps the game needs an AI patch?

edited 15th Sep '11 1:54:18 PM by ViralLamb