Is it possible to be too ambitious to get menial jobs?

Not objectively, no. However, sometimes, the reality is that you need to put yourself before others.

Well, I would be quite approving if someone did that and then the business owners sent angry letters about how much of a dick you are to future employers because, you know, you would be a dick...

Sure, I'd be a dick, but at least I wouldn't starve.

On the scale of "dick," lying to get a job pushing a mop around seems to be slightly above "not folding the clothes on display at the department store and instead crumpling them up and shoving them back in."

You assume that lying actually increases your chances of getting the job either way.

There's a decent chance that the business owner might not have given you the job either way. You wouldn't know, though, because you were a dick, first.

I don't see the point in trying to be anything but cynical and self-centered if you can justify it here. At least be consistent. Either you only care about what's good for you, or you are willing to be the better person.

Well, of course there's a chance you won't get a job, however, your chances drop dramatically if you reveal that "oh, I'm only taking the job until I make my big break in Hollywood", for example. If the question becomes would I rather pass up a chance at a steady paycheck vs. having no money at all, the choice becomes clear. Some people don't have the luxury of playing nice.

Fine. But then you can't have any claim to being anything but a self-centered dick. I'm not really asking you to not being a dick (well, I am, but since that will be ignored...), I'm asking you to be consistent about it.

USAF, you clearly have not actually held a job like the ones we're discussing before. If you don't lie about that crap in your interview, you won't have a chance in hell of getting the job. I'd rather not starve and say a white lie than starve and think of myself as doing the right thing.

Fine. I already said, that isn't the point. The point I'm making is that you can't do that and claim to be any more than self-centered. You're saying that your own well-being is superior to other people's time, money, and effort, regardless. Ok. So how is that not self-centered? Lying is still wrong, isn't it?

It's not quite as black-and white as that. What if you have a family to support, and menial labor is the only work you can get? Is it really better to let your family starve just to uphold your value that lying is wrong? That sounds much more self-centered.

edited 10th Sep '11 9:57:53 PM by tropetown

Okay, sure I'm self-centered if you're going by that definition. So is everyone else in America. If you're not that "self-centered", you're not going to make it in life.

No. But it is self-centered. You've put your desires, wants, and needs over another person's. Is that not self-centered?

What makes that other person's desires, needs, and wants any more important than yours?

What makes yours more important than theirs?

A business owner could have started from nothing—poor, just like you, presumably—and worked his/her fingers to the bone to get to where they are. It's not as if they're just a means to an end. Just as you aren't. Treat others as you'd like to be treated. Would you like to be lied to, taken advantage of, and then left when you were no longer necessary?

Do you think a single fry cook, or whatever it is, matters to a manager? The lie is a lie, and it is understood by both sides.

Yet again, if you want to be so black and white, yes it's self-centered, but so is just about every single other person in America. To say that putting out a small white lie like that is self-centered would be like saying it's self-centered to buy nice things because you could be spending it to help others.

You will not survive in the world without being self-centered in at least some small degree.

edited 10th Sep '11 10:07:12 PM by YoungMachete

What makes mine more important are, simply put, because they are my own. I might have very good reasons for needing work, reasons which are important enough that accommodating other people's desires are not, quite frankly, my concern. Should I be worried about someone else, if I needed to feed my family, or stay off the street? Of course not; it's irresponsible to let your family starve, and it's idiotic to let yourself stay on the street.

As for that company, the bottom line is, you are replaceable. There are literally millions of other people who would want that job, and the employer will not have a problem filling that position. You on the other hand, need money and all that money brings; it makes no sense to make yourself suffer to avoid mildly inconveniencing someone else. Plus, it's a dog eat dog world; either you eat, or you are eaten.

edited 10th Sep '11 10:09:46 PM by tropetown

My point is that going along with it, instead of saying "this is wrong, this should change" only furthers the system in place.

Of course, trying to make a better world would be such a terrible inconvenience to the people who could actually do it, wouldn't it?

Not everyone is in the position to do that. The best thing to do is use that system to your advantage until you are in a position to change it to whatever you want it to be.

Trying to change the world in that way would be trying to change fundamental aspects of human nature. If you tried to put your philosophy to practice USAF, you'd be dead or homeless within the year.

edited 10th Sep '11 10:11:01 PM by YoungMachete

~shrug~

I know. I am, if anything, a Straw Hypocrite, in this regard, since I'm not dirt poor while donating all my money to charity.

I still take issue with the idea that it's simply taken for granted that yes, you will lie in the interview, because what is right does not matter, so much as what is better for you...

Have you ever heard of a thing called a white lie? This is one of them.

Lies are lies, no matter how harmless the liar thinks they're being.

Admirable sentiments, but not at all realistic. If you would really rather let your family starve than tell a lie to get work, then I can't call that anything but irresponsible. Lying is a necessary part of life, I'm afraid; there is nobody (yourself included) who hasn't had to tell one before.

Of course I've lied before. That doesn't mean I think it's right that I have.

I'm not saying that nobody can or will ever not lie for job interviews. I'm saying that they shouldn't try to justify it as right. At least acknowledge that it's a Necessary Evil. All I gathered from the responses before was "well, whatever, who cares?" Well, I think that's a bad thought process, personally, but...

edited 10th Sep '11 10:25:19 PM by USAF713

... letting your family starve? Do the circles of 'menial job flipping burgers that you only want for a year' and 'job that you absolutely need or your children will starve' really cross over that much?

Personally, I'm not comfortable putting anything on my resume or saying anything in an interview that isn't true, because I dislike lying. While I agree that moral systems need a little flexibility, I'd rather they were a bit firmer than that.