Youths Faiths

True but we can't class freedom of religion in the same grounds as child abuse.

Thread Hop.

I agree that any attempt to actually bar parents from religious indoctrination and enforcing their will on religious matters is probably doomed to failure.

However, it occurs to me that it might be possible to spread the idea that not agreeing with whatever (non)religion you've been taught and making up your own mind is socially acceptable, and a parent who vehemently denies it and is unaccepting when their child genuinely turns out to have a different religious view is not the kind of parent one should be. Sort of like the idea that you're socially expected to have a party to celebrate your childs' birthday to be a 'good parent' - but we're not going to throw parents who don't celebrate their child's birthday in jail.

jehovah witness don't celebrate birthdays

Any minor has the freedom to think and belief what he wants, no matter if it's religion, politics or whatever else. But there are always these strange people, called "parents", who stand in the way.

Raising a child doesn't just mean giving them food and a home, it also means to teach them about the world, to shape their views and beliefs. Of course, as parent, you teach them your views.

In that way, one could say that raising a child is brainwashing in itself.

I know, Aon beat me to it, before I had a chance to point it out, but that doesn't stop me from being a smartass.

While I dont necessarily agree with everything Warrior is saying, there are some arguments on his side that we shouldnt dismiss arbitrarily. While it's common sense that children are not developmentally ready to participate in society as adults, there is the question of whether or not our society (I can speak only for the US) actually treats them with sufficient equity. There is a real life movement around these ideas Youth Rights which is entirely separate from the better known "Children's Rights" movement.

Also, historically, in most places and in most times, slaves were treated considerably better than blacks were in the American South before the Civil War. In many societies, they actually did have rights. So his comparison isn't completely inappropriate, although he should have explained that.

@Pointy Ears: Aren't we pretty much already there?

edited 7th Sep '11 6:53:28 AM by DeMarquis

Well, okay. Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate birthdays. That's one part of mainstream western culture they don't participate in. Still, for most (mainstream Westernized) people, celebrating birthdays is just something you do and is expected.

I'm talking about creating (or really, strengthening) a cultural meme, a meme that if you're old enough to find fault with religious doctrine you're old enough for your freedom of religious practice and association to be respected. Maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't, I don't know.

Yes, some people already follow this. But hardly all - heck, my mom is a Jew only in a cultural sense, but I still had to go to Hebrew school and get my Bat Mitzvah even though I couldn't stand it and knew for years before I had my Bat Mitzvah that I never believed in God, and wasn't afraid to say so.

edited 7th Sep '11 6:58:12 AM by TheGirlWithPointyEars

Oh, I see. But at some point you did in fact assert control over your own religious choices, yes? So you're complaint is about the age at which this became possible? What age is appropriate do you think?

I suppose so. As soon as you're able to understand a religion enough to make a reasoned objection to it, I would say. Which would vary from person to person.

@that guy

Whay about 17 years olds and aren't there people who are in there 20's that still couldn't last a day without a parental unit?

@Aon

How is it silly?

1. I have problems with systems that treat people differently just because they're perceived to be inferior.

2. I was talking about sciene that has been used to justify to treat countless other different people groups as less than humans.

3. People always say that you're fully develop when you're in your 20's that why I brought up the 25 thing.

4. Well as lon as they are under 18 they're still not considered full citizens.

5. I misspelled that one my bad but there is a movement called youth rights it been around since the 30's. Also I meant to say that youth rights done more than children rights again my bad.

6. the pro “children should be able to chose for themselves” side sound more attractive and is that a bad thing?

7. Yes it was and I don't know much about psych studies either.

8. Why should the studies of psych doctors impact the rights of people?

Right now I'm hoping, desiring, and fighting for the age of majority to be lowered to 16-14 and in the near future equal rights for all. I don't see equals rights as scary and your voting age arugments aren't very valid.

Driving isn't right and that's a extreme arugment which is kinda of pointless escipally because how would a six year old get a licsense in a first place? People tend to throw out arugments like these when they don't have any better arugments and kids shouldn't be forced to go to school.

A good amount of teens already to go to work and are taxed and when they DID ever have similar responsibilities as adults? Also couldn't youth based unions and what not deal with child labor abuse kinda of like the newsboys strike?

edited 7th Sep '11 10:41:51 AM by warrior93

Because it is an exaggeration of the situation that doesn't really help anyone involved. You should probably just drop the whole thing all together and find another less extreme way to voice your opinion. Discussions such as these are, in part, a battle to manipulate the other side with words. If you can speak well you have a better shot of getting people to listen or perhaps even agree.

In person we also have things like body language and whatnot...

Perceived nothing. They don’t have the mental development an adult has had, and there are consequences for giving someone like that the same rights. You not accepting all the studies that show this is the case isn't going to change that.

Yes, it’s called “scientific racism” it is pretty groundless by modern day standards. Proponents would often “twist” results to fit their desired result.

[[quotebock]] People always say that you're fully develop when you're in your 20's that why I brought up the 25 thing. [[/quotebock]]

It’s a different issue. Degradation of mental capacity in old age is really a different matter entirely.

Anyhow “fully develop” mentally, probably occurs around 25.

And as long as slaves, second class citizens, and serfs remain a different color and/or impoverished they aren’t full citizens.

One is something that’s going to change naturally, the other is not.

Using straw man tactics and hyperbole to make your argument sound more attractive is generally considered a “bad thing”.

If we aren’t going to make informed decisions based on well researched findings, what ARE we going to make decisions based on?

Please, I didn’t say “scary”, I inferred it was open to abuse and brought up a point as to how it was open to abuse. You’re counter point seems to be “No it isn’t.” If you think that’s the case then you might want to start researching evidence against political socialization studies that pick the family as the “primary influence”.

Teens that work now have to get parent permission (at least in Washington state) are required to take more frequent breaks and generally have an easier time of things than adults. Their responsibilities CAN be somewhat similar in the workplace, but the laws of how their treated are very different from how you can treat an adult. They also still have the full support of their parents, who are still legally responsible for many aspect of the children.

The responsibility gap here is pretty big. Narrowing that gap means problems similar to the ones in agricultural hours and allowing children back in jobs like mines, mills, factories, sweatshops, potentially dangerous jobs that can easily cripple someone for life. Not to mention active service in the armed forces.

If you’re pro having the same responsibilities along with the same rights, then I suppose I can respect your commitment to the position. Though these laws are in effect specifically to protect teens. Without them, then we’re back to potential situations where teens are taken advantage of.

@ Justice 4243

1. I apologize if I accidently used strawman tactics and hyperbole and could you explain to me how I was using strawman tactics?

2. My points about the brain studies is that I've heard that once your brain fully get's developed at 25 the brain starts to degraded afterwards.

3.

Did blacks, gays, jews, disabled, women and other minority groups gained civil rights recognition because of scientific studies stating that according to science recognizing the rights of these groups are okay because of a scientific study? So it seems you've set a unfair double standard for youth in contrast to other minority groups.

4. I do believe it has the potential for it to be corrupted and abused but I believe safeguards can be put in place and people can always fight against the abuse and corruption.

5. I believe they should have the same responsibilities along with the rights.

6.

I have a question if a black person after the age of 30 turns white would it have justify or made the years where he was treated as slave, couldn't vote, couldn't go where white folks go, couldn't sit at the backseat, and etc no matter at all because it was only temporary. Also what if he died before he became white wouldn't he have lived his whole entire life less as a human being with little or no rights.

7. I have a question how long has age related laws existed and when did they came to existence?

Sorry I took so long to respond but I can wait to hear your response it has been fun debating with you

Treat people less than people because of things they can't control with their genetics is fundamentally wrong years of x-men comic books have taught me that.

I believe Justice 4243 no longer posts here.

...wtf.