Pick-Up Art

From what I know about PUA (very little) it is less about outright lying and more about knowing what to play up. Like some women respond to, say, machismo and others might respond to sensitivity. Those are both things that guys can be at different times and situations.

• Edit Ninja'd

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:18:24 PM by sketch162000

@MB: I used to work in one. Finding a good relationship there is like throwing darts at a board while blindfolded. Sure it can happen but it isn't very damn likely.

@Thread: again, this is why everyone hates a realist. Yes, everyone does it, so you may as well learn to do it better. People, seduction is a game. It's all bullshit generally, but that doesn't make it bad. How much of "romance" is grounded in reality, really?

I just thought of something else: one of the methods that has people claiming that it's misogynist is something called a 'neg' (I think). I believe they advise people to subtly put down or insult the girl they're interested in, or just ignore her and talk to her friends. The idea is that this will make her put a higher value on your opinion and want to please you.

I don't know how widespread a tactic that is, but surely deliberately attacking people's self esteem to make them more likely to sleep with you is an ethically dubious act.

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:20:38 PM by LoniJay

@Loni: girls do that all the time. It's about time guys learned to get in on the act.

Many of it seems to be common sense.

A lot of that stuff is something you do instinctively anyways. Its not like you could plan it and memorize each stage of building atraction.

Dressing well, looking good, not being awkward, and having a group of friends that do fun stuff on weekends is plenty.

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:23:42 PM by Baff

From what I can see, the majority of PUA tactics are like that: subtly putting down the girl, or placing yourself above her so that she wants to chase you.

point taken.

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:22:47 PM by Wicked223

I don't know, but I love that picture. "This is starting to suck."

@Drunk Again, just because some people already do it does not make it moral.

If there are girls putting boys down to make them emotionally vulnerable, then those girls are downright unpleasant people and I would not want to be friends with them. Same thing for pick up artists.

It's just bullying.

@Loni: So, "playing hard to get" makes a girl a terrible person?

Re: Negging—The thing about negging is that the people who most need pick up techniques (i.e. socially awkward guys who can't get a date to save their lives) tend to put women that they fancy up on a pedestal, and so sabotage their chances by either worshiping the girl or holding her in such a high regard that they psych themselves out.

Putting down or teasing others is part of my flirting method. It's also a part of how I interact with my girlfriend and a very big part of any of my sexual advances on her. She gets with me with similar or worse things and this tends to be the sort of stuff that gets me very interested in another person.

There's certainly ethical issues with this sort of behavior at times, but some of us honestly love it. I have very little interest in anything romantic or sexual that lacks such teasing and power struggles. Unless you're cruel and can press my buttons AWAY WITH YOU.

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:29:55 PM by Aondeug

The "neg" is explicitly meant as a playful quip or a backhanded compliment meant to show that you're not intimidated by a woman - not an insult. It's also explicitly meant to be used on women who get compliments from practically salivating men all the time, in order to set yourself apart from the crowd. Why would someone who's trying to make himself attractive to a woman deliberately make her feel bad?

I've been negged by women, and I never took offense to it.

That depends what 'playing hard to get' entails. If it means putting people down, then yes, I believe it's not the right thing to do.

But the morality of all this seems tied up in gender stereotypes - you know, like the idea that men are tough guys who have no feelings to hurt so it's OK to put them down, while women are emotional and fight with words, and the idea that it's men who do the chasing and women either run away or pretend to run away.

@Aondeug: for you. Teasing does serve a good purpose on both sides of the gender line; it is a good litmus test for seeing how well someone takes a joke. Personally, if a woman I'm interested in cannot handle a little teasing, she's too uptight for me. I expect her to give as good as she gets, and have a good time doing so.

@MB: Exactly. Women have been doing this for a long time now, and guys don't know how to handle it. I'm glad someone's finally thought to level the playing field.

But there is a difference between goodnatured teasing and banter, and actually trying to make people feel bad.

I don't see anything wrong with the first. But most of the articles I've seen about this technique seem to imply that it's the second - and the girl isn't supposed to catch on that you're doing it deliberately.

@Loni: post a link so that I might read, if you would be so kind. I'm curious.

Agreed about the importance of teasing in flirting. There is a difference between trying to harm someone with your words and playfully picking on them. That intent doesn't always come across, but that's just one of the quirks of communication.

Funny thing about bullying with schoolchildren, for example - especially if it's between opposite genders, you always have to consider that the bully actually likes the victim and is having trouble dealing with the feeling.

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:39:49 PM by sketch162000

... I read them ages ago and they were random websites that I was linked to. I can't remember where they are.

Drat, I have no leg to stand on, here

Yeah communication is a bitch that way...People react to things very differently. What goes over well with someone will fail spectacularly with someone else. There's a multitude of general trends in behavior, but you have to find those first. So really the only thing you can do to get it right is to wing it and observe the other person very closely. Poke about a bit and get a feel of them and let them do the same with you.

Then use the knowledge you have in regards to how to work people and use it.

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:41:43 PM by Aondeug

The teasing is also a good measure of confidence. I've had problems with confidence growing up, and probably screwed up a few good chances with girls by reacting badly when they teased me.

@Loni: It's okay, what I wanted was to read the source material and draw my own conclusions. Ah well. I'll trust you.

There is a reason why I'm not a subscriber to their beliefs wholesale; while I support any attempt to teach men to, y'know, actually work to get girls (instead of that terrible "Nice Guy" bullshit), some of what they say is inaccurate, poorly explained or (as you've pointed out) kinda cruel.

I just have less of a problem with that last, because my experience tells me women are capable of just as much cruelty in their own way. People are basically selfish, and women aren't exempt.

The question isn't whether these techniques are ethical; it's whether they're effective. Because if we start talking ethics, I could say PU As are bad because pre-marital sex is unethical, and this would turn into an exercise in people talking each other.

Cultural diferences can also be extraordinary when it comes to subtleness.

@Rottweiler: Never thought I'd do this, but for you.

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:44:52 PM by drunkscriblerian

PUA is not some monolithic group with a universally shared set of opinions and terminology, so a citation tends to help. For example, Tyler (of www.rsdnation.com, IIRC) seems to be all about 'this is about self development. be present in the moment [rather than stuck in your head — don't try to pretend anything, just be something], and continuously move your agenda forward.'. That seems both effective [also makes sense theoretically, per Occam's Razor and Systemantics — the more complex your modal, the more prone to failure it is], and moral — If everyone was approximately like that, both our relationships and the general state of the world would be better.

OTOH there are other guys, like Roissy, who I've heard about from Less Wrong and seems like a complete misogynistic bastard, both by reputation and by casual inspection of his blog (sadly, I suspect he's also fairly effective. Social mechanics are social mechanics, after all; if you discern how things work, being a bastard doesn't directly effect your results.. the only people who have relative immunity from manipulation are particularly secure, centered people, really) Everyone has their own ideas.

Some are false, some are true and worth considering, some are true and not worth considering (I consider the 'neg' concept to fall into this category; eg being a cheeky bastard[1] covers it without any need to think about such a concept.)

[1] I mean that in the Australian, affectionate sense ;)

Also...

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:58:54 PM by SavageOrange