How are the U.S and Europe different ideologically?

So I was having this discussion with USAF and he posted the following:

"European/American ideological similarity is like night and day..."

Since I always thought the U.S and Europe where ideologically very similar this got me thinking.

What do you think are the difference in ideology between European countries and America? Do they outweight the similarities?

edited 11th Aug '11 5:39:56 PM by Baff

Let's see, in a purely academic manner, Europe is generally way to the left, and the US way to the right, comparatively.

It's totally true when Europeans tell Americans that their Democrats (left) are the European equivalent of a centrist party, and the Republicans are super-far-right (which is actually much more true even in the US now thanks to the Tea Party). Conversely, the European "middle left" is the American socialist far left. We're on two totally different scales, here.

Agreed with the above.

Our left-wing party (Democrats) is slightly less conservative to the Conservative party of, say, the UK, and only a fringe extreme (like myself) would identify with the Social Democrats or another European liberal party. Our right wing is far-right, and it's being pulled even further right by the Tea Party. For reference, in the US, nationalized health care is far left, and the right is scared to repeal it in European nations.

Another thing is that the term 'liberal' means different things in the US and Europe. In the US, the term means socialism-lite, while in Europe, it's close to the US's 'libertarian' and refers to government non-intervention in the economy and morals/individual choice.

edited 11th Aug '11 6:05:48 PM by DarkConfidant

That was not the case 20 years ago do.

Lol, wut?

Try 40. The Europeans were drifting to the left of the US around Vietnam, and the process was just about complete by the 80s, Margaret Thatcher's Britain notwithstanding. Although one can argue just as much that the US has drifted right, too...

edited 11th Aug '11 6:10:18 PM by USAF713

Well I'm not sure it's all about ideology really. There are some pretty far right politics in Europe that most in North America would regard as way more right wing than here (but they get voted in and obtain seats in various governments).

I think it's more that certain aspects have moved out of ideological debates and into scientific ones, left/right issues have different focuses and in the United States some things are still ideological based.

For instance, most people figure unions/corporations are here to stay so our only option is to see how they fit into our life style. Restrictions, regulations and rules are then discussed, and these might veer into a left/right debate. United States on the other hand, still seem to be set on whether or not you should have unions, whether or not you should have corporations and the like.

Healthcare has moved out of ideological debate in most places in Europe, and mostly out of it in Canada. The discussion is highly economic and scientific with people trying to push statistics for different measures. Everything from homecare to hospital arrangement is discussed. In the United States, it's a left/right debate whether or not the government should handle healthcare.

On the aspect of military, Europe has largely tried to avoid major confrontation at this point. They act mostly through the UN and most of the continental countries contribute thousands each to UN peacekeeping operations. Britain on the other hand likes to relive its former glory but doesn't actually have the resources to do so, so it kinda piggy-backs off the USA. Canada is in the strange position where the people (although a significant portion believe opposite) wish to do peacekeeping but the government doesn't do it, at the same time most people don't want to reinforce American military operations.

Immigration I think you'll find that North America veers quite to the left. Even though America is facing a major illegal immigration problem and a major backlog on legal immigration, it's still very receptive to immigration in comparison to the most liberal of European countries (which I would say is France). Over in Europe and especially eastern European countries, they think France is "lax" with immigration. If anybody from North America (except Mexico) looked at their immigration policies, they'd be busy laughing all day long about how it is lax.

My somewhat uninformed impression is that the US also tends to be more "liberal" or "progressive" with regard to things like religious freedom and freedom of expression.

I assume we're speaking primarily of Western Europe? Ideological diversity within Europe is itself quite extreme; a typical left-winger in a Scandinavian country, for example, will hold substantially different viewpoints on issues related to civil liberties, military, and nationalism than a typical left-winger in Russia.

Culture in Europe is more secular, while the U.S. is still very much WASP-y.

But that might not be what you're looking for.

edited 11th Aug '11 9:10:30 PM by TheEarthSheep

In genereal, the European attitude is to make sure everyone has a certain standard to live and then let them do what they want. While in the USA liberty comes first and rules that might assure better comfortable living have to go if they infringe on it. So EU security > freedom; US freedom > security.
From there you can explain why the US doesn't have any good healthcare or why the left EU has laws about how to name your children.
About religion... I think the problem in Europe is that diversity of religion is not so widespread. You're either Christian (and it's mostly just two flavours in West Europe) or atheist (especially if you're from a country behind the Iron courtain). The community of Jews or people indentifying with Islam is not that big outside of the UK. People need to learn how to deal with each other and some conversations like the upheal about wishing "Merry Christmas" just hasn't happened yet. Also, I think people in Europe are in general relaxed in their attitude about it. Most "missionars" from US are just to aggressive in getting new followers and don't earn alot of love.
Also, E Urope in general doesn't have a big group of immigrants so almost everybody is "caucasian"(which is a almost nonexistant concept in Europe. As is filling in a field asking for your "race" on forms. Rather you're asked after your citizenship and where you were born.)\\

edited 12th Aug '11 1:21:21 AM by myrdschaem

USAF: Most European governments these days have drifted to the right although they are all probably still left of the Democract party.

Edit: myrdschaem, Lol wut? There is alot more religious groups in Europe than just Christains. There was a big shitstorm about changing the name of Christmas in the United Kingdom. Also, there are large black commuunities in Europe because of the Age of Empires.

Do any Americans actually watch a TV programme called the news?

edited 12th Aug '11 1:28:27 AM by whaleofyournightmare

> What do you think are the difference in ideology between European countries and America? Do they outweight the similarities?

The difference between ideology in Europe and America is caused because until 80-90, most european country is a nation state with relatively small religious, racial and immigrant communities. Also destruction of WW 2 caused difference between rich and poor to be reduced.

with more unified society, it easier to promote welfare (whether its poor assistance, health care or parental subsidy).

In America people perceive receiver of welfare is different from them. many anti-welfare campaign have insinuating that taxmoney from 'Real American' will go to 'Other' (welfare mom, lazy poor, urban cosmopolitan, etc).

With more unified EU, rich-poor divergence and increase immigration, i think Europe will become like America.

the current EU crisis is mainly caused by Germany unwillingness to help PIIGS which perceived as lazy and corrupt.

edited 12th Aug '11 2:10:41 AM by PhilippeO

^^

I watch BBC.

Anyhow, I would say a distinctive characteristic of the US is that we're very watchful of our own government, and paranoid as all hell about them abusing their power. As someone said above me, Europe values Security over Freedom, while the US is the opposite. We value freedom above security, and we don't trust our government at all.

And I like that, personally. Freedom is more important to me than security, because I can provide my own security and have it both ways. I'm not scared or worried about being victimized in the US, I realize it's a possibility, but I prepare for it as best I can.

The other thing is that we do have a good deal of racially motivated strife. Every time I've been to Europe, I've been absolutely shocked at the utter lack of Mexicans walking around. Or any sort of brown people, for that matter.

edited 12th Aug '11 2:12:07 AM by Barkey

I think the difference is more that there is more trust of government to not be full of moustache twirling villains, not that we value security over freedom. We aren't (in general) the people who spend billions upon billions on policing and the military after all.

That and more of an emphasis on "freedom" in America tends to come across as unsupported rhetoric, whilst I am sure most American's consider Europe "too soft".

edited 12th Aug '11 2:16:25 AM by JosefBugman

The other thing is that we do have a good deal of racially motivated strife. Every time I've been to Europe, I've been absolutely shocked at the utter lack of Mexicans walking around. Or any sort of brown people, for that matter.

Why would there be Mexicans in Europe ? But there are 179 nationalites in the UK IIRC and most immigrants live in the big cities/capitals of Europe.

The UK is pretty diverse from what I hear, but I didn't really get much time to explore since it was like 3 days at Lakenheath.

Germany and Italy though, they didn't look all that diverse.

Oh, and the way that the EU and USA treat their military. I'm often annoyed at the way we're enshrined on some pedestal in the USA, but I'm equally annoyed at how some countries in the EU(Not UK) seem to hold their soldiers in low regard, especially the Germans. I know some of this is obviously fallout from WW 2 and such.. But I still don't like it.

Oh, and after getting disciplined for getting in a fight at an airport in Italy, I hate Italians. Piece of shit spit on me because we were in uniform.

edited 12th Aug '11 2:43:14 AM by Barkey

I think alot of Europeans view being a soldier as supporting the politician and/or war. There are a lot of possibilities to get out of having to serve(if you have to) and you can get money for education outside the military. And protecting your country on another continent sounds more like a excuse for most.
All in all, the difference between "supporting our soldiers" and "supporting the war" like Americans make them (and that people can just support one) is nonexistant in Europe. Unless you explain that there's just a lack of comprehension.
@14: I have to agree with that. Europeans trust in their goverment more than Americans - or at least don't start out in the believe they're trying to screw them over. On the other hand, European goverment think that people are at their core bad and that laws are needed to protect each other while American goverments in general believe that people are good and don't have such needs.

edited 12th Aug '11 4:22:06 AM by myrdschaem

It used to be much bigger though. You know why.

See, the idea that "getting out of having to serve" is acceptable is rather abhorrent to me.

From an American viewpoint, nobody is forced to serve. I doubt we'll ever have another draft short of alien invasion, so our military is all volunteer. People who sign up to serve do so because they want to be there to protect the USA and its people from harm, all the wars and other stuff is just sort of extra baggage in addition to that duty, and its baggage that we don't get to decide to pick up or put down.

Now, if offensive actions in other countries are considered a pre-emptive defense against an attack in our actual country? That's open to interpretation, but in the US the troops have good intentions while the politicians send us off on missions that many don't approve of. Serving is considered a good thing here by most, not some chore to get out of.

For trusting their governments so much, the citizens of the EU sure seem to have a whole lot of distrust of the tangible elements of the government they trust, the military and law enforcement.

edited 12th Aug '11 5:08:42 AM by Barkey

We have respect for soldiers - not wars. Soldiers are made out to be saints, heroes in an unkind situation - wars - caused by government and big corps.

Ideologically... I share my political views with many Americans on here, but that may not be very respective of the entire thing.

I assume it came after WW 2. America didn't lose as much as Europe did, as European governments realised that people suffering was a root cause of the war, etc, etc. and so they implements social programmes, like UHC and welfare.

To put it this way: When I heard what the basics of Obamacare was, I scoffed.

European anti-war protests of the last 10 years do not imply that.

^^

Which is why those greasy Italians were spitting at us in the Airport.. Because they obviously respect soldiers and hate the wars...

I guess that isn't really fair, you're in the UK, and y'all seem to treat your troops right from what I hear. I like the Brits, by and large they seem to be really good people. I really enjoyed serving alongside British troops, they always knew how to keep morale up.

edited 12th Aug '11 5:10:58 AM by Barkey

[[European anti-war protests of the last 10 years do not imply that. ]]

Having wars, like Iraq, which appear to have no justification does that to a population.

European anti-war protests. Not anti-soldier. We respect our servicemen, but we do not respect their conflicts.

I am a pacifist, yet if I were to see a soldier, I would salute them. If I was to see an MP who voted 'yes' on Iraq, I would spit on them.

^ You do, but that's not what the protests implied. A lot of them especially outside the UK didn't care if you were a politician or a low rank grunt. They treated them all with the same disdain.