The General US Politics Thread

X3 This started because Ludlow asserted that any whistleblower that tried to go though the system would end up dead, I called that assertion absurd and you defended it, if your position is now different and you just think that it’s not unreasonable for very high profile whistblowers to worry about the possibility of their life being in danger yeah I can totally get that, but such an argument woudl be a massive departure from what you’ve been arguing since this started.

I argued pragmitizim from the start, I have said multiple times that I one agian DO NOT think the government is evil. :/

I didn't "Change" to saying Manning and Snowden being alive proves that, I said from the start that they did what they did because of a justified fear of there lifes, and the fact that there alive means they chose the right path for them personaly atleast.

There is a diffrence between "Any one who does will end up dead" and "Most will end up silent and they could posibly dead"

Its the last that I believe, a small risk of death, is still a risk of death they have to consider.

edited 15th Jan '18 8:39:52 PM by Imca

It would have been helpful if you’ve made that clear 40 posts ago, instead of opening by agreeing with someone asserting something very different to that.

Your primary example was a murder carried out by the Klan and municipal government. It's literally not an example of what you said it was.

I did apparently misread Ludlow though because I thought he said "Quickly find themselfs silenced or on the buisness end of a pistol" when I quoted that.... that bolded part was not there, but was important to my agreement with him ._.;

I will admit to that, I thought he said something he didn't

Local government is still the US government.

edited 15th Jan '18 8:40:55 PM by Imca

No it isn't.

If you cannot tell the difference between the municipal and federal governments there's not a lot of point in having this conversation.

edited 15th Jan '18 8:44:13 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Alright, one last comment and I am out for the night. This seems to boil down to whether you believe that government systems are capable of self regulating-if simply dumping any and all classified/private information is acceptable because you believe it is impossible to go through the actual, legal channels, then it would seem you have no faith in the government systems period, and I am not sure what common ground there is to be had.

This conversation started because I pointed out the sharp divide in legal definition between a whistleblower and someone dumping classified/private information ad hoc, which is usually criminal.

As for the government killing whistleblowers; while I absolutely believe people are capable of almost anything, in lieu of a single incident or possible incident where a government whistleblower actually died or disappeared under suspicious circumstances, I think I will look at the evidence. And what I see is a long list of whistleblowers putting the US government over a barrel and revealing extremely damaging information, including some of the things Imca listed like the Syphilis experiments, and none of them winding up with acute lead poisoning or the like. A few of them ended up in prison for screw ups or deliberately crossing a line, and most of them had some misery visited upon them as a result, but I do not see any indication of mysterious deaths a la reporters in Russia.

At the end of the day, the US government is made up of people, and while a lot of them likely have it in for whistleblowers, so far Imca has provided nothing besides 'well, they might, one day'.

The US government is not a monolith. Local, State, Federal...there's a difference.

It... it really isn't. There's a huge difference between Local, State and Federal Government.

Edit:

edited 15th Jan '18 8:44:18 PM by ITNW1989

I mean technically I suppose that Snowden, Manning, and Assange might/would be in danger from your archetypal Corrupt Hick sheriff. But Imca's post was pretty clearly asserting that whistleblowers would be in danger from the federal government, which makes the Mississippi Burning example a non sequiteur.

lmao the Federal Government is basically one giant sword of Damocles that's one incompetent mistake or series of mistakes from falling apart, from career bureaucrats, checks and balances, and desire to undermine the other.

It's not a monolith. Never will be and arguably never CAN be.

I mean Manning was at least claimed to be at risk due to the threatment she received at the hands of the military guards at her prison, but again, that’s individual actors (incentivised by a system that rewards certain kinds of behaviour I’m sure) not a federal conspiracy.

Wasn't that one of the main reasons her sentence got commuted?

I’m not sure, but it would be a pretty good reason if so.

There is also option 3, in that "You trust the government for most things, but you don't trust them to self police" a who watches the watchmen type deal.

I can tell the difference, but there still part of the US government.... Or is Mississippi not part of the united states..... or is its government not really government?

Thats a dangerous way to view things, most of these people are competent, despite all the jokes about them not being so.

....

At least in any administration that isn't this one.

edited 15th Jan '18 8:55:25 PM by Imca

Snowden however, if he's ever somehow returned to the US, needs to be tried, and locked up and having the key thrown away.

Say what you will about Manning, but at least she faced the courts and served time.

What the hell makes Snowden a special kind of evil? He essentially revealed the NSA's massive surveillance operation against the US public.

I will agree with you that I don't necessarily trust the government to self-police (though I do think there are people who legitimately want to fight corruption). However:

The objection that I and others have is that you're using it as an example of corruption on the municipal level as proof that a different type of corruption must exist on the federal level. There is a considerable disconnect between the two, and I think you're deliberately ignoring that.

Running and hiding in Russia of all places makes it harder to take his claims of wanting to protect privacy and transparency seriously.

And no one straight up called him evil. We're criticizing him for not even displaying the same level of integrity Manning displayed by showing up in court and serving time.

edited 15th Jan '18 9:05:39 PM by M84

Its part of the same system, the people that are elected at a local level also make it to the federal level see the republican party.

The entire federal government isn't like that no, but I don't think its that much of a stretch to think you would find the same kind of people and situations in there, because the same people will be putting some of them in power.

edited 15th Jan '18 9:08:15 PM by Imca

What did he do that was so wrong as to deserve to end up in Federal prison? Do you know what happens to people in the US prison system?

edited 15th Jan '18 9:07:53 PM by Ludlow

Having several friends who have spent time in prison? Yes, I do. The fact of the matter is that Snowden did it, claimed to be protecting the people, and then fled to RUSSIA, which has a vested interest in not doing so.

If nothing else, it makes his claim highly suspect.

edited 15th Jan '18 9:11:42 PM by GamesandTropes

I feel like we can talk about how Manning was dignified all we like, but it reminds me of how conservative types might talk about the dignity of the working poor - the fact that they have dignity does nothing to negate the horrific conditions they have endured, and it's shameful that these go ignored. And you want Snowden to receive the same treatment?

Then that is an argument for prison reform. And somehow I don't think Snowden would end up suffering the same issues as Manning did while in prison.