Thomas Ball

If he were truly a domestic abuser, I doubt that the wife would have reported him with such expediency. She sounds like a tool, he sounds like he had married a moron, and they both sound incapable of raising a child.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

-shrug- I get reports of DV all the time, this just happens to be a minor one that "escalated" a tad and, tbh, it seems to be more of a way for people with an agenda to push their own understanding of the law than an attempt to look at the facts.

I was originally sympathetic about the guy - I know how child custody and child support laws tend to be unfair to men - but hitting a four-year old till she bleeds, for licking your hand? I don't care if the guy burns.

Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.

Nowhere near enough information to make a judgement. Especially it's all dependent on this slap. It could have been something quite violent and deliberate, or it could have been just a jerk of the hand at a weird sensation, like when a fly lands on a person's hand, the sort of reaction that is done first, and processed by the conscious mind second (especially since the amount of force required to make someone bleed from the mouth is such a low threshold.) Now, regardless of what happened, I don't think anyone ought to be immolated for any crime; it's a singularly horrifying way to die.

edited 29th Jun '11 1:59:59 AM by Alexander_UE

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Really depends on how it went. Did he smack her in the face repeatedly, or just once? Open hand or closed fist? Did he do it intentionally, or, as Alexander UE said, was it just an instinctive WHAP! It's pretty easy to draw blood by hitting someone in the mouth- you pretty much just have to hit them at the right angle to push their lip up or down into their teeth, catch them by surprise and make them bite their tongue, or just outright bust their lip. I could easily see someone popping someone in the mouth out at a weird sensation hard enough to accidentally draw blood.

EDIT: Ah, found an article that says he did hit her multiple times. Still- he was found not guilty, and not allowed to see his daughters regardless, while still having to pay child support for 10 years.

edited 29th Jun '11 2:46:21 AM by Wulf

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

He wasn't immolated for his crimes, he immolated himself as some kind of desperate statement, to encourage other people to start burning down police stations and courthouses.

From what I can tell, he had the opportunity to go to counseling and then see his children. He wouldn't. I respect that a lot of people justifiably thinking counseling is a lot of hooey, but in this case, I think some psychiatric care may have been in order.

Okay, multiple strikes are enough (for me) to say that the charges were warranted. And while he was found innocent, that was not the court that oversaw the divorce settlement; a million other factors could have shown up in the settlement that would affect his visitation rights. The counseling clause is a bit suspect, if they didn't want to convict him, I don't think that sort of condition ought to be imposed during a divorce settlement.

Oh, just some people were saying that he deserved what he did to himself. I realise that it wasn't done as a punishment.

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Counseling was a way for them to try to offer him a way out, without blindly turning an eye to the potential problems, including possible complaints by the ex-wife. His refusal, and his self-immolation makes it even more likely it was a prudent idea, not an unfair imposition. A court in a divorce situation is supposed to look out for the interests of a child, this is distinct from the interests of a criminal court, where the priorities are different. So I don't see it as at all unreasonable, there's enough cause to be concerned even if not to convict.

I suppose he could have demonstrated that he was a bit unstable during the procedure, enough to say that he didn't deserve visitation. And counseling does make for a good avenue to get back into the children's lives.

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Assuming that what was said about him in this thread is correct, it seems like a series of bad decisions on Ball's part led him to the position he was in.

He chose to physically abuse his daughter.

He also chose not to accept the counseling that was offered as a means to allow him to see his children.

Given those two points (and not being aware of any of the other circumstances), it seems like the court made the correct decision in denying him custody and visitation rights in the interest of the children's well-being.

Since he did not have custody, it's also reasonable that the court would require him to pay child support, again in the interest of the children's well-being.

I agree with those above who said that self-immolation given these circumstances is probably indicative of serious mental issues. All in all, the Men's Rights movement would probably do better to be more selective in choosing a champion for their cause.

I would still like to see a neutral news source to confirm some of these details.

edited 29th Jun '11 12:17:20 PM by Meeble

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^It's weird. In most cases I would agree with you, that something neutral is needed. But in this case, we're actually going by what Ball himself has wrote in the manifesto. We're actually going by his own argument, and a lot of us are finding it more than lacking. There's no counter-argument needed, as the counter-argument would probably just make things even worse for Ball's case.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve

That is a good point, actually. You would think that he would have pled his own case better.

edited 29th Jun '11 12:32:25 PM by Meeble

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The problem is, the people that were supposed to counsel him were the same ones that presured his wife into calling the police on him in the first place for what, at the very least legally, was not child abuse.

He felt that the case worker had something against him and didn't want to go to the same people responsible for the whole situation*

in the first place for help. In his mind, what he did was pretty much the same as spanking his daughter—he told her three times "stop licking my hand" and then he smacked her when she did it again. If he hadn't drawn blood he probably would never have been arrested in the first place.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

If that was his problem, then could have requested another option for counseling.

Did he? From reading his letter, I would say no, he probably did not, but instead he focused entirely on refusing to do anything except stubbornly fight.

Not that it being the same agency means it was the same persons.

But really, if he were bothered, he could have offered some other provider and likely gotten it. Instead he eventually set himself on fire.

edited 29th Jun '11 3:31:23 PM by blueharp