Metal Gear/ Metal Gear Solid

Question for everyone:

Who has it worse, Big Boss or Raiden or Venom Snake or Solid Snake?

• Big Boss systematically has his faith in everything and everyone demolished throughout his life. Everyone close to him betrays him in some way even if they did genuinely care about him.

• Raiden's parents were murdered, he was made a child soldier, he was brainwashed as an adult, lost most of his body and made into a cyborg, and ultimately couldn't adjust to civilian life.

• Venom Snake was brainwashed into forgetting his very identity so he could be his boss' body double. Then gradually loses his morals and dies at the hands of Solid Snake, a phantom to the end.

• Solid Snake was created with a genetic expiration date that guaranteed that he would die young due to Rapid Aging no matter what.

It sucks to be a Metal Gear protagonist. Not that most of the side characters or antagonists have it better.

I'm kind of torn on Venom Snake. Yeah, he was used after that explosion... But Ocelot's not wrong that he threw himself in front of it, knowing full well he might die, to save Big Boss. He made the choice to sacrifice himself; Zero, Ocelot, and BB just extended the duration of the death for a few years.

But yeah, his anger is still understandable, I'm not saying it isn't.

Yeah, Venom Snake had his entire identity torn apart just so he could be a glorified body double for Big Boss.

And then tossed aside when it was convenient so Big Boss could fake his death and move around undetected by the Patriots.

I did interpret him as having had such a mental breakdown that he decides to go along with it despite learning the truth because he's just in too deep with the whole thing. Even when he's being tossed aside by Big Boss, he's still loyal to the end.

There's something wonderfully tragic about that, considering the whole mission with the base getting infected by the parasites.

It is pretty scummy of Big Boss to still go along with the plan despite his whole mission statement.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 21st 2023 at 2:24:22 AM

Ok, here's a question for you all, what is your favorite game of the franchise?

I'm always divided between MGS 2 and 3. I actually really like MGS's overly elaborate plots, and I also like Raiden's story (the Romantic Plot Tumor is deliberate, and also not Raiden's fault, its Rose/The Patriot's) and interactions with Plisken Snake . So that's MGS 2. But I also really love three's historical setting, level of detail, and the general spy-movie tone.

I also really like the gameplay of MGS 5, but it has its issues that detract from the whole.

Edited by diddyknux on Nov 20th 2023 at 1:13:28 PM

Oh it’s Metal Gear Solid 3 for me personally.

I just love everything about it, soundtrack, gameplay, cast, boss fights, and the ending.

3 also is important because its how I was introduced to the series. A friend had the HD collection on the PS3, and we just had a chill time joining him as he played through it. So I ended up getting it myself, too.

One of these days, I want to show this game to one of those kids I take care of sometimes and see how they react to things like the Cuban missile crisis and the Cold War.

I’m going to pretend the Boss was actually a real person.

MGS 2 was my intro to the series. It was a bit of a trip, but enjoyable.

As a result, I more or less didn't share in the initial hostility towards Raiden. I wasn't as attached to Solid Snake as other fans of the series, so playing as Raiden instead wasn't so weird to me.

Probably have to go with MGS 1, not only because of how groundbreaking it was, but it still has my favorite aesthetics and color choices in the series. To the franchise's credit it went for numerous different emphases with its overall visual tones, but that 1998 release with the stark blues, greens, & cyans?

Still love it all these years later.

MGS 1's aesthetics probably fit best with the premise of a stealth game.

My interpretation is that OG Jack has no real attachment to the Big Boss identity. It's just one thrust upon him and it should be noted that Venom Snake is actually a person who DOES view themselves as Big Boss because he's become that individual. Maybe it's because I'm a fan of Stand Alone Complex but the "Big Boss" from the game, his myth, and legend is really just a misconstruction of those two individuals.

Neither is the whole person.

My inclination is personally that with the Characterization Marches On that the first two games probably have to be reevaluated with new information. I actually go with something of an Occam's Razor that Outer Heaven and Zanizbarland are just two utter fuck ups like Boss' Oil Rig base. Big Boss wanted to create his haven for soldiers but his inability to do diplomacy right and enemies of the Patriots meant it was doomed from the beginning.

His "betrayal" of Snake also has to be taken in the context that he believed him to be just another pawn of the Patriots, being a literal clone of himself. I believe that Venom Snake was expected to win both times but Solid just proved too tough. It's only by 4 does he wake up and realize Solid was his own man the entire time.

He possibly was also awake long enough to see the War Economy in action and the reality made him realize how horrifying stupid it all was. Mind you, the inability of the Bosses/Snakes to see their children as people is also a running theme.

Solidus craves destroying the Patriots as his legacy and completely ignores Raiden is a better one despite their lack of a genetic connection. It's another way Solid is superior as he does adopt a child and through that legacy is the one who destroys the Patriots.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 20th 2023 at 10:30:18 AM

Big Boss even admits that Solid's the better man and that he probably wouldn't have made the same mistakes.

Yeah that last part of Solidus’ character was always a neat one for me. In a game about legacy, Solidus dismisses his own in favor of an idealized one but is turned into a pawn because the Patriots knew how to play him.

That's a valid point too

Yeah, there’s something to be said about how the Patriots did indeed manipulate context and information as well as what the target desires to get people to dance to their tune.

It’s something they spell out to Raiden, and what they plan on a bigger scale.

Just look at how the president acted when he realized he was part of the simulation.

Wasn't Big Boss hooked up to the Patriots CPU?

Is that maybe why they went insane and made the War Economy?

No, the Patriots went batshit because Sigint programmed them with broad directives and had them learn from the internet.

The Patriots developed an extremely cynical view of humanity as a result, leading to the war economy and SOP as the means to control them.

Strangelove originally planned to program them with empathy in mind, but Huey killing her meant she didn't get the chance.

Huey Emmerich's responsible for so much shit in the Metal Gear verse.

Edited by M84 on Nov 22nd 2023 at 4:24:19 AM

According to the wiki:

At an unknown point in the proxy-A.I.s also underwent a mutation that gave them a will of their own and enabled them to decide on a better way to accomplish their goals: war. They created the war economy and started a battlefield revolution similar to the industrial and digital revolutions that was described as "a new world without ideology, principles, or ideals, not even the thing [The Boss] treasured the most: loyalty. It was a colossal error in judgment – one Zero couldn't possibly have foreseen." To control the flow of information, they would control the economy, by influencing the outcome of these wars through the Sons of the Patriots system which would also allow them to control individual people. The Patriots planned to extend their control down to the civilian level, actively controlling and censoring people through nanomachines.

I stick with Big Boss' explanation, it was a sudden unexpected mutation in the AI's thought process that Zero and Sigint couldn't possibly have predicted.

The problem of making A.I.s before any of the A.I. Is a Crapshoot fiction developed.

Yeah, it's what the wiki says as well. I don't think Sigint's programing had anything to do with it, it was just a random mutation.

Which is a dumb reason but it's MGS 4, Kojima was trying to end it all and gave as many dumb explanations as possible.

It's hilarious to imagine all the Patriot agents including the president getting orders from an A.I. considering what RL A.I. is capable of producing.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 21st 2023 at 6:31:52 PM

Honestly I could see it happening if we somehow went all in with the dumb A.I.s handling things too. They'd get stuck on something random. Maybe in another universe the Patriots would get obsessed with paperclips.

Patriot agent: So my slip of paper says invest in commercials to advertise private military companies to further the war economy. What does yours say?

Patriot agent 2: Invest in tobacco.

Patriot Agent 3: So how the bloody hell are we supposed to make a profit on the war economy? Won't that shit be detrimental in the long run with the massive loss of life and infrastructure? We're still in debt from the war on terror.

Patriot agent: Meh, good soldiers follow orders.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 21st 2023 at 6:37:02 PM

(The true message of MG is that the economy is kinda fake)