Team Rocket Boss.
Though we know straight from Big Boss' own words that he was trying to plunge the world into more wars so Snake stopping him is a net positive.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Made even worse is that Snake's very first mission in FOXHOUND (originally, he had no military experience before joining but it was retconned to him being in the Green Berets and a Persian Gul War veteran before joining FOXHOUND) was on lies (his commanding officer turning out to be the enemy's commanding officer and how Outer Heaven was bombed while it was covered up as an earthquake). Not only that, the "Big Boss" he fought after he destroyed the TX-55 Metal Gear was a fake.
Edited by HallowHawk on Nov 20th 2023 at 4:50:31 AM
Really in contrast to Big Boss's plan in 2, "Big Boss"'s plan in one was down right passive in comparison, showing how the different the two had become from one another despite both being Big Boss.
The Metal Gear from Outer Heaven was simply meant to be a deterrent so that the Patriots would leave Outer Heaven alone.
Edited by Roguemind on Nov 20th 2023 at 4:56:35 AM
Team Rocket Boss.
Somewhere out there, the real Big Boss was recruiting child soldiers and stockpiling weapons while Venom was unaware of it all.
Or decided to play ball with him after his mental breakdown.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Oh, bother.
Though even in Peace Walker Big Boss had already grown disillusioned with fighting for a cause.
- Big Boss: We have no nation, no philosophy, no ideology. We go where we're needed, fighting not for country, not for government, but for ourselves. We need no reason to fight. We fight because we are needed. We will be the deterrent for those with no other recourse. We are soldiers without borders, our purpose defined by the era we live in.
Edited by M84 on Nov 20th 2023 at 8:58:29 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Well, its shown Venom himself was considering keeping on the child soldiers Diamond Dogs rescued to fight, but Miller put his foot down against it. I assume its due to Miller feeling guilt over Chico having died as child soldier.
Edited by diddyknux on Nov 20th 2023 at 7:01:49 AM
Really could question if Big Boss set up Venom and Outer Heaven to fall on purpose, not just to fake his death, but also to convince his followers that there could be no Outer Heaven without a war. Really it's possible that Venom could have actually passively become a threat to Big Boss's plans because he was too good a double,
Some soldiers might decide simply joining Venom's Outer Heaven and no longer fighting to be better than Big Boss's plan to challenge the World. So for Big Boss sending Snake in was a Win\Win for him, either Snake dies to Venom proving how powerful Big Boss is and Outer Heaven is left weakened enough and angry enough that they'd Follow Big Boss, or Snake wins, "Big Boss" dies and whatever is left of the people who believed in Outer Heaven would fall under his sway.
Edited by Roguemind on Nov 20th 2023 at 5:04:50 AM
Oh, bother.
Let's also not forget that in the first Metal Gear "Big Boss" forced Madnar to build the Metal Gear by taking his daughter Ellen hostage. So it's clear that by the time of the first Metal Gear Venom Snake's own morality had clearly sunk to a new low.
I think Outer Heaven wasn't intended to fail. Both Big Bosses just underestimated Solid Snake.
Edited by M84 on Nov 20th 2023 at 9:06:09 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Yes we'll sadly never know the real story of what drove Venom to be that desperate to get a Metal Gear that he'd resort to that.
Team Rocket Boss.
Venom Snake had a mental breakdown at the end of Phantom Pain, he's now clearly a pawn of the real one.
When Big Boss asks him to jump, Venom doesn't even get to say how high.
At that point, Venom would happily slaughter children on Big Boss' command. He has his own methods for sure, but he's still just a phantom for Big Boss.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 20th 2023 at 9:09:27 PM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Though considering how callous Big Boss was by the end, could he have decided that Venom was a Pawn who had outlived his usefulness, after all he would no longer need a fake Big Boss since during the course of the first game he drops his commander act and reclaims the Mantle Venom was borrowing.
Could explain the frustration Venom had in the end, especially if the tape really did have the mission name that Big Boss gave Snake. Venom could have realized at the last second he had been had all along.
Which just shows another form of history repeating since Solidus had the same result.
Edited by Roguemind on Nov 20th 2023 at 5:17:41 AM
Oh, bother.
It's interesting that the later made games Peace Walker and Phantom Pain revealed that Big Boss was already familiar with Metal Gears and even had one of his ZEKE (though it was lost in the Ground Zeroes incident).
Presumably they had to kidnap Madnar because they didn't have the ability to simply rebuild ZEKE without Doctor Strangelove. Sahelanthropus was also not an option since the damn thing was a piece of junk without convenient super powerful psychics to help operate it.
Personally I just think that both Big Boss and Venom Snake took Solid Snake too lightly and paid the price for it.
Edited by M84 on Nov 20th 2023 at 9:19:33 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Team Rocket Boss.
I personally think Big Boss considered Venom expendable but didn't expect Snake to actually kill him, and Venom took that as a betrayal.
It's likely that after the whole Eli incident the Sahelanthropus was turned into a hunk of junk so psychics or no psychics there was no rebuilding that. Also have to take into account that Venom lost a lot of resources as things settled down after the game and thus he had to downsize his expectations for his next metal gear.
And I agree, I don't think Big Boss would have expected Solid Snake to succeed, though for him either outcome did work in his favor.
It makes sense.
Edited by Roguemind on Nov 20th 2023 at 5:27:22 AM
Oh, bother.
While Big Boss might have preferred keeping his phantom around, he sure was quick to use Venom's death to fake his own in preparation for Zanzibar Land.
In Big Boss' twisted view, he might have thought that was "honoring" Ahab.
As for Sahelanthropus, another reason might have been that it was Huey Emmerich's creation. And both Big Bosses hated that guy.
Edited by M84 on Nov 20th 2023 at 9:31:37 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Team Rocket Boss.
Yeah I personally think Big Boss started seeing Ahab as a threat to his own power and leadership at that point. So while Big Boss didn't expect Snake to kill him, Big Boss is clearly not all that bothered by the death of his phantom.
It highlights just how far he's fallen that it's entirely possible to read Venom Snake as being set up by the real one.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Which only further makes the mission an example of History repeating in even more ways,
just like The Boss and Solidus.
It really does show how much of a hypocrite he turned himself into by the end.
Edited by Roguemind on Nov 20th 2023 at 6:42:02 AM
Team Rocket Boss.
Yeah there's a theme of people become exactly what they fought.
Not even the Patriots are immune to this, since the state of the world that MGS 4 is in is exactly the kind of world that Big Boss desires.
A world of endless conflicts. Just the thrill of battle, and generations of victims to continue the war.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Oh, bother.
Though taken at face value it was Solid Snake who was set up to fail.
Outer Heaven had already been revealed to FOXHOUND’s superiors. Big Boss had to send someone to deal with it as the ostensible leader of FOXHOUND. He figured that Solid Snake being a rookie at the time would fail.
It is still an example of Big Boss being a hypocrite. After all, Solid Snake himself was also a soldier trained under him and following him.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Team Rocket Boss.
Though clearly, Big Boss could have ordered Venom to escape the exploding base, but the implication is that Venom was ordered to fight Snake and expected to die to fool the rest of the world into thinking Big Boss was dead.
So the big implication is that Big Boss sent Venom to die in the final scenes of Phantom Pain with that tape.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 20th 2023 at 11:22:21 PM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
The Wandering Geek
@Red, yeah I agree that Venom was sent out to fail by Big Boss. That's the feeling I get with the final scenes of Phantom Pain and the retroactive hints in the OG Metal Gear.
Every time someone claims to be realistic is a dour cynic in disguise.
Oh, bother.
No, he was not set up to fail. Outer Heaven was supposed to be a success. But Solid Snake ruined it by destroying the Metal Gear.
So the next best thing was to blow the whole thing up and hopefully take out Solid Snake at least so he wouldn't be able to mess up any future plans. But Venom was unable to pull that off too and died in the attempt.
At this point Big Boss went "screw it" and took advantage of this to fake his death and prepare Zanzibar Land.
The fact Venom kept up the act right to his last moments is pretty telling. He was that committed to being the phantom.
If his last words were any indication, he was also genuinely pissed at Solid Snake for ruining things and wanted to make sure he died.
- Ahab: But you were too good. You went too far! Solid Snake! I'm not going down alone. I'm taking you with me! Prepare to die!
Edited by M84 on Nov 20th 2023 at 11:49:44 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
The Wandering Geek
Yeah I don't care. Sorry if that sounds rude but I told you already.
@Red. How did you feel about Solidus as a character in Metal Gear Solid 2?
Every time someone claims to be realistic is a dour cynic in disguise.
Team Rocket Boss.
Solidus is an excellent character to drive the themes of legacy and deception. He seeks to emulate Big Boss just as Raiden seeks to emulate Solid Snake. His dream of creating a lasting legacy because he can't have children, through his revolt is a good example of what happens to those who undertake a righteous crusade at any cost.
And those he was using ended up using him for their own causes. He hoped that through strength and willpower he could change the world, but his zeal made him an easy target for those who would exploit him. Fortune attempts to hijack Arsenal Gear, while Olga secretly aids Solid Snake and Raiden; Ocelot and the Patriots, in the meanwhile, manipulated, incorporated and invalidated his entire uprising in order to complete the S3 Plan.
It's kinda Shakespearean when you think about it. I have something of a soft spot for him as a villain despite getting overlooked by most of the fanbase.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 20th 2023 at 11:59:25 PM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Edited by Roguemind on Nov 20th 2023 at 4:51:07 AM