LGBTQ+ Rights and America

I've never heard it used at all but I'm guessing queer is meant to be a term that can refer to homosexuals, bisexuals, and other identities whereas homosexuals are just that. Correct?

Correct. Queer also covers people who are genderqueer, trans, and otherwise don't conform to sexual and gender norms.

Yeah, Gabrael, nobody should ever imitate a minority to try to experience discrimination first-hand. Never.

@RT That kind of image pisses me off because I mostly see that attitude among heterophobes who don't want straight people on their side.

edited 15th Oct '12 8:37:50 PM by Boredman

Eh, the guy could have learned just about as much by talking to the homosexual community with an open mind. Masquerading as a gay man wasn't really necessary.

Most LGBT-friendly establishments are just that; friendly. You can walk in as a straight and find instant acceptance, all you have to do is not act like an asshole. I do it all the time, mainly because in my experience the LGBT scene is better at having a good time.

I respect this guy's willingness to do this and his desire to learn about something he was hitherto ignorant of. But really, if he wanted to do this sort of ethnography, all he had to do was go to these places and talk to these people, person-to-person. The pretending wasn't really required.

I'll call it a good thing, because the guy apparently learned the right things from doing it. But still, the whole "experiment" kinda comes off as selfish and needless.

edited 15th Oct '12 8:51:49 PM by drunkscriblerian

Boredman, I never said they shouldn't do it, I said I found it distasteful.

I have worn a full burka in public but it was a requirement for one of my undergrad classes. I attempted to fight it with the Dean but alas, I failed and I needed the credit to graduate.

So here's the thing, at the end of the day, I can take that burka off. I can wash my makeup off, I can say "just kidding"! I can move on with my life.

The people who actually live this cannot do that.

My boyfriend cannot wash the black of his skin anymore than I can paint my skin darker. We still have to live in our roles. And while I have had some people tell me how after becoming mother's they have some idea what it was like for me to be a dingle mom, I just want to punch them because they're not even close. You have to live it. You can't just play dress up and think you have it. You'll have a better idea but that's all it is, an idea.

And it is very condescending to me when people play with other people like that. At least the guy in the book you referenced was interacting with complete strangers. This guy lied to his mother, violated the privacy of her journal, lied to all his friends, initiated community bonds based on the lie, and yes his intentions were good. Yes, he wasn't trying to be malicious. But damn boy!

Why not volunteer at a counselling center or a halfway house where people who are kicked out from their parents house have to stay? Why not visit those who are gay and HIV positive in the hospice wards? Why not join up with a college LGBT club or local charity? Why not shadow a gay couple as they attempt to jump through the irrelevant hurdles to become parents either through artificial means or adoption?

Why should he get a cookie and his voice be heard for being a liar when there are others who are dying because they can't "stop pretending"?

@Gabrael: I don't find it distasteful, simply because it sounds like his motives were legitimate. He wanted to learn, and "walking a mile in another man's shoes" is a good way to do that. However, like I said and like you said, it wasn't necessary for him to pretend to learn these things.

To be fair to him though, there was no way for him to know that given his upbringing. There's this idea that "gay culture" is clannish and insular, not to mention pushy. Anyone with real firsthand knowledge knows this isn't true, but I'm not surprised a christian fundie did not have that knowledge.

And here is an oppertunity for us as a culture to discuss just how disconnected and out of touch certain groups are with each other and begin discussing ways to bridge these gaps, which would be so useful for all.

But instead, we have a demographic praising him for being a hero when he's really just a well intentioned but so out of touch man, and another demographic branding him a traitor with little mish-mashes in between.

It's kind of like how the African American community wasn't very pleased with the novel/movie "The Help". Yeah, the author didn't mean any maliciousness, she was using some of her own experiences, but it was just another white person saving the black person and feeling good about it.

Here we have a fundie getting pats on the back for playing a queer and therefore becoming a force to save them.

Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Did he ever say "I know exactly what it's like to be gay"? No. He said he had a better idea. If he wants to learn more about what gay people face, fucking let him. Overcoming bigotry is something to be proud of. It's not very common, and it helps to make the world a better place. Especially since he's publicizing it.

Of course he was out of touch. That's exactly why he did this. So he could get in touch.

"So straight people being applauded for supporting gay rights is a bad thing? "

Those Hetero bastards! Where do they get off supporting Gay rights?

edited 15th Oct '12 9:35:05 PM by DeviantBraeburn

And about The Help:

There are two main reasons why there are so many stories of white people saving blacks. First, the film industry has a major problem with casting non-whites as protagonists. This is because they're trying to pander to the majority by making the heroes look like them. Second, back then, white people had much more power than black people. The civil rights movement couldn't have accomplished anything without pro-equality whites on their side. An oppressed minority can't remove their oppression without the aid of the majority (at least not peacefully).

Getting the support of the majority is the most essential part of any minority rights movement.

"First, the film industry has a major problem with casting non-whites as protagonists. This is because they're trying to pander to the majority by making the heroes look like them. "

While this is true, The Help was a book before it was a movie.

That's beside the point.

The point is getting help from the majority is a good thing. It means you can do more.

Jesus Boredman, it's not like she called for the guy's head on a platter. She just expressed disdain the situation is so disconnected that this is considered progress.

And I for one, agree with her.

I believe the ends justify the means. Did he mean well? Yes. But as Morgkit and Gabrael both pointed out, he has yet to comment on how people like his softball team felt about all this. If it happened to me, I would feel flat out used! I would feel lied to because I was. And while I wouldn't bitch him out or torch his car, I certainly wouldn't want to talk to him again or hang out with him.

If others did and they're okay with everything, that's fine. But there is also nothing wrong with people not celebrating this and bringing up honest concerns over what possible effects this could have.

I personally think this will be forgotten by the end of the week. Those who are already set in their ways will use this as foder for their zeal fires, pro or con. Those who are on the fence will probably ask the same questions Drunk, Gabrael, and Morgkit brought up. Maybe they'll see around it. Maybe they won't.

But I honestly don't think this is really going to amount to anything important.

I was kind of quoting somebody else.

Boredman, don't you think you're being a bit defensive? Nobody said straight people supporting gay rights was wrong. But plenty of straight people do that without a fake coming out.

The point was that this guy went from hating believing gays to be sinners to supporting them, which is quite another thing than going from not caring one way or the other to supporting them.

edited 15th Oct '12 10:08:30 PM by Enkufka

Apparently he didn't hate them or else his lesbian friend crying on his shoulder wouldn't have happened. He had gay friends previously. He realized that maybe he should reconsider when he was pondering how to convert her rather than just being there for her.

He's not a bad guy, but it does make me wonder how he values friendships and if he managed to salvage what he betrayal he pulled with his new gay friends.

This is a very cumbersome situation.

@Polarstern: well, hopefully said softball team will pay more attention to what this guy learned from his experiences.

Like I said above...I think the guy's methods were a little misguided, but let's all take a look at the guidance he'd received on the matter up to that point. Fundamentalism casts homosexuality as a "spiritual affliction"; something that can change you as a person if you spend too much time around it. We all know that's bullshit, but children of this education system do not.

Doing what he did took a large measure of courage, and maintaining his open mind took some intelligence.

Sure, there are better ways to learn about homosexuality. But as progressives we often don't consider just how damning the propaganda being employed by the fundies really is. In casting homosexuality as something contagious (and painting it as a sin against God), they actively discourage the kind of person-to-person exchanges that overturn prejudicial thinking.

Gabrael, Polarstern...I understand why you take issue with this guy's methods; were I someone who personally knew him I'd probably feel angry that I'd been lied to. But I invite you to consider that this guy had the guts to step into an arena he'd been indoctrinated to believe would destroy him. And now, if the article is correct, he's an advocate for LGBT rights.

Again, I don't think he's a bad guy.

But I can't help but try and consider this has the potential to do more good than just giving a Christian a hug for being brave.

I would rather see more articles and discussions over why such measures were needed. Some Christians say that fundamentalists are the minority, well, the news from Congress and what not say if they are a minority, they are a very vocal and powerful minority. We need to be talking about both the good and the negative that can come from this so we can try to sculpt the outcome to a more encouraging direction.

You don't need a majority to succeed. You need the majority of leadership to succeed. The Civil Rights movement was not popular vote in the south. Luckily, enough politicians and generals believed different they could suppress this popular vote.

This situation could be used as a good conversation starter and brainstorming session on how to bring such isolated demographics together. Almost all my Christian associates are excited he's a hero. But when I ask them if they've considered talking to their church officials about LGBT acceptance, they magically are "busy". So I question how much of a building impact this will have, versus it's potential.

I don't doubt if this event fades from attention.

The Civil Rights Movement needed the majority of the country, not the majority of the South to succeed.

You need the majority of the country to succeed.

...most of the time.

edited 15th Oct '12 11:17:36 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if some fundies pointed to this and said "We were right all along. The sodomite lifestyle is a choice that can be made at the drop of a hat. So it's ok to punish them; they're acting this way deliberately to spite God."

But they think everything is a deliberate attempt to spite god.

Atheism. Homosexuality, smoking weed, dancing..

There's nothing wrong with the guy; what's fucked up is the situation, and I hope he doesn't stop here in moving beyond it. What he accomplished is the social justice/sensitivity equivalent of passing the third grade. When a grown man who was denied a third grade education manages to complete it in adulthood, you don't praise him for learning third grade level subjects. You praise him for rising above his lack of education - and you blast the shitty conditions in which he was denied this education for so long. We're not saying "this was bad", we're asking "why was this necessary"? Why are the first baby steps of treating gays as human beings made so difficult in some areas that guys like this dude have to go to such drastic measures to take them?

Maxima: I really do think sometimes members of a persecuted demographic, be it gays, Christians, people of color, etc, can become so used to being maligned that they perceive it even where there is none.

I won't deny if I were in the position of one of his friends after he revealed the truth, my first thought would be "this was some kind of mean-spirited prank". Obviously I'd give him the opportunity to explain himself.

Exactly. I struggled with the issue for years, but never to that extreme. The worst I got was when someone asked me if I was gay and I automatically assumed he was picking on me like the kids in school. (Turns out he wasn't. Oops.)