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"Religion in theory" and "religion in practice." :

edited 27th Sep '13 12:40:09 AM by JosefBugman

 52 honorius, Tue, 24th May '11 10:33:57 AM from The Netherlands
The conflict between Good and Evil is the core of Zoroastrianism. Good includes telling the truth instead of lying, but it's not limited to that.
If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling
 53 Usht, Tue, 24th May '11 10:34:02 AM from an arbitrary view point.
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
Well now see, that's the thing, the core of Judaism is following the laws, the core of Christianity is charity, Islam I can't say for sure since I haven't studied it. However, if the Zoroastrians have a creation story or whatever, truth is eventually going to conflict with science and so then the truth starts to get wonky, making the whole deal of "truth in theory" and "truth in practice" get warped. What am I saying? Just because a religion has truth as being central to it doesn't mean that people will always manage to hold it up regardless.
The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
 54 honorius, Tue, 24th May '11 10:36:18 AM from The Netherlands
Usht, you might want to look at this if you are interested at the fundamental principles about how to behave in Islam

It's also about struggling to please God, which is Jihad, and that doesn't necessarily involve airplanes and towers, it mostly means trying to live a good and moral live (and in Arabic its just the term for struggle, whether religious or not).

edited 24th May '11 10:40:59 AM by honorius

If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling
 55 De Marquis, Tue, 24th May '11 10:38:22 AM from Hell, USA Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
"Truth" means different things, depending on the context. AFAIK, most religions that claim to be based on "Truth" are referring to what they believe is a universal, cosmic truth, i.e. the nature or will of God. I'm not aware of any major religion that sets up personal sincerity as a core tenet of the belief system.
“Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”
 56 Usht, Tue, 24th May '11 10:45:46 AM from an arbitrary view point.
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
[up]You mean besides the commandment I just pointed out a few posts above?

Not lying is actually a major part of just about all major religions, you'd be hard pressed to find a religion that isn't Shintoism that doesn't embrace the idea of being truthful fully and that's only because Shintoism is so diverse in its beliefs. However, that just goes back to the theory and practice deal, in theory, no one would lie anymore if the entire world was religious. In practice, humans are humans and may only use religion for its shallow benefits instead of truly adhering to the philosophies of the religion.
The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

edited 27th Sep '13 12:41:41 AM by JosefBugman

 58 Justice 4243, Tue, 24th May '11 12:19:41 PM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
Not lying is actually a major part of just about all major religions, you'd be hard pressed to find a religion that isn't Shintoism that doesn't embrace the idea of being truthful fully and that's only because Shintoism is so diverse in its beliefs

I think one could make an argument at adhering to one’s kami or true-self is a core Shinto belief. Then again… LYING could potentially be part of that kami-self. Truthfulness isn’t a precept or anything.

In Buddhism, the Parable of the Burning house has been used to allow lying for the sake of a greater good…though I’m not sure that was the intention of the parable.

I’m not sure I have a point here, I just like flexing my religious muscles. tongue

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
 59 Usht, Tue, 24th May '11 12:30:32 PM from an arbitrary view point.
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
Josef, if you don't mind me saying, while discussing the importance of truth to every religion would be on topic, discussing whether or not it's as central in one religion as another is not. I wasn't trying to say truth is the hinge that, say, Judaism hangs on, I'm just saying that Judaism embraces truthfulness to a great extent, which is important to the theory part of this discussion.

edited 24th May '11 12:50:52 PM by Usht

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
But it has everything to do with this!

A religion that has a sole basis in truth HAS to act in practice as it does in theory, because otherwise there IS no religion, just people copying the same motions.

Religion in practice and theory become the same thing, and the human race is improved by a huge section of the population telling the truth at all times.

 61 Usht, Tue, 24th May '11 1:25:44 PM from an arbitrary view point.
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
Great, let me check the number of Jews that have not followed the commandments in the past. Or the number of Christians who have been stingy and greedy. Or the number of Buddhists who have hurt someone before. Or... the number of Zoroastrians who have lied.

In which case you can probably say that if you're a practitioner based on whether or not you abide by the core principle of the religion then you might find the world is a lot less religious than you might think.
The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
 62 De Marquis, Tue, 24th May '11 1:26:34 PM from Hell, USA Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
@Josef: could you provide a link please? I cant find anything about never lying in the Zoroaster entry at Wikipedia.
“Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”
[1]

[2]

The second link talks more about it, it also sets up why Xerxes (the bad guy from 300) may have put people to death for lying to him.

edited 24th May '11 1:31:59 PM by JosefBugman

 64 They Call Me Tomu, Tue, 24th May '11 1:56:48 PM Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Sureeeeendaaaa
There's a difference between saying "Lying is bad" and "Truth is of intense inherent value."

 65 De Marquis, Wed, 25th May '11 5:53:18 PM from Hell, USA Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
Well, I appreciate the links, and I enjoyed learning more about Zoroastrianism, but I still don't see anything about never telling lies.

In which case, I must stick with my position that acting dishonest a number of times per se does not disqualify one as a member of any major religion.

edited 25th May '11 5:53:29 PM by DeMarquis

“Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”
 66 Justice 4243, Mon, 30th May '11 3:44:58 AM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
I’m not familiar with Zoroastrianism scripture, but a skimming of The Other Wiki page seems to suggest truth = good and lies = evil. Truth in this case seems to be more pointing at the belifes

*It is at the time Justice decided “Fuck it, I’m going to the bookshelf…*

Ahem… ah, damnit…

*It is at this time that Justice decided “Fuck my books and their informative, but not addressing the exact point I was looking for on Zoroastrianism, I’m going to Google.”*

Sins denounced by Zoroastrianism

Emphasis on Truth > lies

some basic precepts “(d) Speaking the Truth always”

Keeping the above in mind with the Dualistic nature of Zoroastrianism (righteousness =truth, evil = Deceit), I’d say it pretty reasonable to imagine “not telling lies” as a core concept as opposed to simply part of the code of ethics. There seems to be more of clear emphasis of speaking the truth in Zoroastrianism than say, what’s in the ten commandments:

Neighbor, probably assumed to mean “Fellow Jew” in Judaism or “Person who treats you with respect” in Christianity * , whereas Zoroastrianism’s view of truth seems to extend to all.

Granted, I’m not terribly familiar with Zoroastrianism scripture or how practitioners tend to practice it. Perhaps interpretation of the scripture allows for truths From a Certain Point of View or exaggerations.

Also, I don’t want anyone to take away that I think this is an inherently superior way to go about a behavior, but I do think there’s reason to believe at least some partitioning members of Zoroastrianism did/do believe that telling lies is tantamount to committing blasphemy against their faith. That does strike me as a somewhat unique notion amongst the different world religions.

edited 30th May '11 3:46:17 AM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
 67 De Marquis, Tue, 31st May '11 5:31:53 PM from Hell, USA Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
OK, I see where you are getting this, although it would be helpful to have access to some primary sources. To the extent that honesty is specifically an injunction in Zoro-ism, it would seem to receive more emphasis than it does in Xianity. (However, I would point out that Xianity contains a universal moral code- to the extent that a Xian isn't supposed to do something to somebody, that includes everybody, not just other Xians- and that's not just theory, but in practice).

edited 31st May '11 5:32:18 PM by DeMarquis

“Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”
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