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Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#1: Mar 23rd 2011 at 4:31:46 AM

There's a been a rather distressing trend I've noticed in this particular forum. On Topic Discussion tends to leave itself open for a lot of debate without things getting too silly. However, it still quite open to those who will bicker all day and not get anything accomplished or learned and there's one primary source of this problem that I keep seeing come up. It's that many people hold the standard:

"My position is absolutely right while the opposing sides are absolutely wrong."

That's not to say all of you do it, but many of you can look at posts and see them oozing with this sentiment, whether it be just a restatement of the original position, a direct insult, or outright denying opposing points. I'm not immune either, but that's what I've come to discuss, it's the fact that I think people should be able to take the position of the opposition and understand where they're coming from, if not be able to out right defend that group. It allows for you to better construct counter arguments that the opposition may come up with, reaffirms you own position, and allows you to get more information on the particular subject if done right.

So yeah, how often do seriously consider the other guy being right about what you two are talking about?

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere Since: Feb, 2011
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
#2: Mar 23rd 2011 at 4:34:29 AM

Some positions are undefensible.

For example, saying that the majority should have the right to pass arbitrary laws, or that the government meddling in the personal lives of the people is acceptable are self-evidently WRONG propositions.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#3: Mar 23rd 2011 at 4:38:58 AM

outright denying opposing points

are self-evidently WRONG propositions

Heathen, that's just the sort of thing I'm talking about. It only breeds misunderstandings, anger, and an inability to be sympathetic towards others even when they don't agree with you.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#4: Mar 23rd 2011 at 4:39:37 AM

[up][up] Case in point.

I don't know, I always try to see the other side of the argument. In some cases it's difficult because my position is essentially automatic, seems obvious to me, and the opposing viewpoint is very very difficult to fit into my head.

edited 23rd Mar '11 4:40:58 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#5: Mar 23rd 2011 at 4:44:02 AM

One thing that I have to bear in mind when arguing about anything is the potential that is always there that the other guy may be better informed than me. That doesn't necessarily make him right, but an argument is certainly strengthened if you know lots of specific details.

With OTC I generally like to passively browse threads and people's arguments and come to my own conclusions. If something is posted that hacks me off or I'm fairly sure I can meaningfully contribute then I'll reply.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Sandbylur Since: Jun, 2009
#6: Mar 23rd 2011 at 4:46:43 AM

For me, it seems I usually try to reconcile the other guy's ideas with my own, either because,(gods forbid) he's right and I need to adjust accodringly, or because it ideally should help me better convince him.

tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#7: Mar 23rd 2011 at 4:48:03 AM

That's because the other guy is WRONG!

But on a serious note I agree withpaged It ry tokeepin mind that peoplle usually know more then me. Unfortionetly I also have a tendency to dig my heals in.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
SG_man_forever That one dude. from Earf. Welcome to it. Since: Apr, 2010
That one dude.
#8: Mar 23rd 2011 at 5:41:18 AM

I try to see where other people are coming from. It's just that usually, if I have an opinion on something, it's because I've looked into it, and made a decision on it that was thought out and reasoned, which means that most of the time, whatever points a person uses to validate their point, I've heard before, and, on my own, disagreed with them for very specific reasons.

If a person presents a point I've never heard before though, and it's convincing, I'll certainly listen to them.

Without music, life would be a mistake. -Friedrich Nietzsche
GreatLich Since: Jun, 2009
#9: Mar 23rd 2011 at 6:15:30 AM

So yeah, how often do seriously consider the other guy being right about what you two are talking about?
Often enough. Most frequently in RL discussions, mind you. Becoming the devil's advocate, I'll try to pick apart my discussion partner's arguments, see if they hold up under scrutiny or simply see if they can hold their own against a contrary position. The idea being that this will strenghten the argument they make.

Of course, sometimes there's simply no debate possible. Especially online, where both parties have access to the same information. When both then come to different conclusions, there's only left to acknowledge that the opposing sides do not hold the same values or do not hold them in the same degree. No further debate is possible and (should such come to that) those disputes will be settled on election day*

I also believe that one should go into these discussions aware of this. Not everyone can be persuaded to the oppossing side of the argument and one should not expect this outcome in the first place (or at all). State one's case and perspective on it as clearly as possible, point out any fallacies one might see in one's opponent arguments. One should not set out to do more, in my opinion. As the saying goes: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

self-evidently
There is no such thing.

edited 23rd Mar '11 6:17:35 AM by GreatLich

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#10: Mar 23rd 2011 at 7:53:41 AM

I am not an OTC regular. I frequent the entertainment section, where YMMV rules the land. As a result, I tend to have a bit of a skewed vision on this. Basically, I can't convince you that you're wrong, but I CAN convince you that I'm not wrong either.

edited 23rd Mar '11 7:53:51 AM by MrAHR

Read my stories!
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#11: Mar 23rd 2011 at 9:49:14 AM

Heathen, that's essentially just being a zealot.

There comes a point where the best thing you can say is "I think you're points are full of shit."

You can't prove that a concept is false, nobody can unless it's tried without concrete results. All you can do is convince the majority of the people in the conversation that their point is wrong.

The only way you can call someone out as being absolutely wrong is if they are stating factual data that is in fact false. You can kick and scream about how you think they are wrong forever, but it's not an absolute. Eloquence over shouting like a petulant child wins out any day.

edited 23rd Mar '11 9:49:51 AM by Barkey

Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#12: Mar 23rd 2011 at 10:58:56 AM

What was that toxic meme Korg used to refer to? "Everyone who disagrees with me is either stupid or evil"?

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#13: Mar 23rd 2011 at 10:59:49 AM

[up]Please tell me he was sarcastic about that.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#14: Mar 23rd 2011 at 11:00:31 AM

A successful discussion, to me, is where I can say "I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with you on [X]", where X is some sort of basic unprovable belief (eg, different schools of thought on a subject). If I can follow someone's argument from their basic beliefs to their position on a subject, then I count that as a good thing, even if I don't agree with their basic beliefs.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#15: Mar 23rd 2011 at 11:19:11 AM

[up][up] He criticized the attitude, not claimed it, if that's what you mean.

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#16: Mar 23rd 2011 at 11:28:23 AM

[up]Okay, because from what I've seen of Korg, such a statement would be very out of character.

Anyway, for those of you who are still saying "the last option is that I'm wrong", I've still got to disagree with this position. Your position should start with the possibility of you being wrong and then work up and prove it to be right, at least to yourself. Plus, it allows for more fluidity in your beliefs and arguments.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#17: Mar 23rd 2011 at 11:30:58 AM

I don't really believe a person can be wrong, unless you count statistical inaccuracy. Any position has a ground to stand on, it just matters how popular and how executable that ground is.

Read my stories!
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#18: Mar 23rd 2011 at 8:45:42 PM

I try to be open-minded, but there really is a point past which I can't respect someone else's beliefs. (See: the Westboro Baptist Church.)

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#19: Mar 23rd 2011 at 8:46:49 PM

At this point I would like to let people know that I am in no way nor will I ever be associated in any way with the Westboro Baptist Church.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#20: Mar 23rd 2011 at 8:50:43 PM

WBC falls into an area of exceptions, best not to think too hard about their position since they're a bit too busy hating everything not them.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
Wanderhome The Joke-Master Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
The Joke-Master
#21: Mar 23rd 2011 at 9:39:41 PM

Actually, people like the WBC are "where the rubber meets the road", so to speak, for the philosophy of giving every opinion a fair hearing. It's easy to listen to and seriously consider another person's opinion when it is close to yours or at least relatively mainstream. If you are serious about giving every point of view a fair shake, though, you have to bite the bullet and give the extreme fringes a chance, too.

Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#22: Mar 23rd 2011 at 9:41:34 PM

Bah, fair enough. But that brings up another point, what if someone's views are so alien to you that you can't really grasp where they're coming from?

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
Wanderhome The Joke-Master Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
The Joke-Master
#23: Mar 23rd 2011 at 9:45:55 PM

Then you listen patiently until they are finished elucidating their views. After you've given it some more thought, if you still can't decipher their viewpoint, declare them Genestealers and give them the Emperor's peace. tongue

Seriously, though, if you absolutely cannot decipher what they are trying to get across, then there's really no point in trying to have a discussion with them.

edited 23rd Mar '11 9:46:33 PM by Wanderhome

Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#24: Mar 23rd 2011 at 9:47:44 PM

Classic Aesop: Don't talk to the brick wall that speaks some weird combination of Latin, Elven, and Vietnamese.

Yes?

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
Wanderhome The Joke-Master Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
The Joke-Master
#25: Mar 23rd 2011 at 9:50:34 PM

Well, I'd append "Buy the building the wall is attached to before anyone else finds out, then spread the word that the wall is a magic oracle, and begin charging admission to speak with the Wall of Truth," but I find your Aesop agreeable as far as it goes.


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