Anarchy or communism for the next 100 years?

Crush my dreams, why don't you? Anarchy still sounds more exciting than this drivel, up until my power goes out and my internet stops working. That would be pretty lame.

See, so many people dont seem to think about that. Sure, it SOUNDS exciting to be part of a band of wasteland raiders or something, but that means no electricity, no Internet, no medicine that you cant steal, no indoor plumbing or showers, and the constant risk of a stronger enemy raping and murdering you. So tell me, does it still sound like a good time? Because NONE of us except the trained Tropers would stand a fucking chance in the case os social breakdown, okay? NONE of us. Most of us here are just out of shape Internet dorks with no useful skills that doesnt include using a keyboard, and some of us not even that! Without modern society, we'd be less than useless. So excuse me if I dont think that anarchy sounds like "a good time".

example

I wasn't trying to upset you or anything. (Just FYI, I may be an internet dork, but I am not out of shape!) If Anarchy actually happened, I'd probably spend most of my time trying to help give people supplies and stuff, so things would probably be more like a relief effort than the Fallout series made real for me. I realize I'd probably only be able to provide my neighbors with minimal assistance and do poorly at that as well, but I'd at least want to try.

Huh, this might actually make for a good topic all it's own.

edited 22nd Feb '11 12:52:17 PM by randomtropeloser

See, I used to be an anarchist, and I never advocated the breakdown of society. As far as I'm concerned, anarchism is entirely compatible with some forms of socialism.

I've got a couple of friends who seriously consider themselves Anarchists, but seem to have some strange view of human nature that allows them to think total anarchy would actually work.

Sucks to be people w/o survival skills.

^^ Sorry, Im just so sick of the idiots who really think that they would get to be top dog in case of a social breakdown. You know who would get to be top dog? The military, the cops, the survivalists, the people who already have access to weaponry and supplies far better than anything a civilian could scrounge up. Basically, those of us who live in cities and dont want to constantly wait for the end of the world as we know it to happen would be fucked if it does occur.

^Bummer.

I was in the Boy Scouts for a couple years, does that count?

I know, most of my "King of the World" fantasies are intended as jokes. The only chance an ordinary person like myself would have would be to join someone's private military, and probably end up shot to death in some turf war or something. The change of pace might be exciting for a while, but in all honesty things would probably be pretty terrible after the initial thrill wore off.

edited 22nd Feb '11 1:04:38 PM by randomtropeloser

^Did they take you to the range?

It's not about how humans are all perfectly good and will never do anything bad ever. That's not true and it's not the point. There would still be a legal system.

Part of the point was that you can eliminate a lot of crime by simply changing society. For example, if you abolish private property, and eliminate poverty, theft should become a non-issue.

I dont want people touching my stuff >:/ Well, it wouldnt be MY stuff in that case, but I really dont feel comfortable with having everything be communal, I like having stuff only I can use.

@Kino: I shot a bb gun and practiced archery a couple of times. Plus, I've got a composite bow! Not as good as a gun, but it's something!

^^ So do I, TBH, I'm pretty materialistic in that sense. I think that's ultimately a bit pointless and selfish, though. I'm not exactly proud of it, and I think I'd be prepared to adjust if capitalism was abolished (although at present I don't want capitalism to be abolished).

edited 22nd Feb '11 1:09:05 PM by BobbyG

^^Well at least you could go bow hunting.

Communism, mostly because I'm under the impression that anarchy can't really sustain itself as a form of, er, nongovernment in anything larger than a small villiage of like-minded individuals. Plus I get health care, which I kinda need. The particular SSRIs I take have one hell of a discontinuation syndrome.

As long as we're going with the philosophical definitions of the systems and not the Themepark Versions I'm kinda fine with both. If someone made them really work in reality they would be nice places to live. Alas, I haven't seen any kind of approach that worked out on this so I will go with Communism since it's more likely to be stable.

"I dont want people touching my stuff >:/ Well, it wouldnt be MY stuff in that case, but I really dont feel comfortable with having everything be communal, I like having stuff only I can use."

I'm familiar enough with anarchism (har har ) to know that's not what they mean by private property. They mean "the means of production" and so forth, not your personal possessions. They don't think everyone should be allowed break in your home and take your stuff. That's a straw man.

The thing is Silent, people would adjust and band together. Yeah, there would be douchebag raider groups, but more often than not groups that used to belong to the government who have weapons and supplies would just start communes, and people would rally to them. As the power base in each region solidified, the roads would get safer as the raider bands died out or integrated, and eventually smaller communities would expand.

Over the course of history, wars would be fought by these groups, larger and larger states would emerge, industry would slowly crawl back up, and eventually we'd be right back where we started, though slightly different.

I mean shit, like I have mentioned several times, my base is in a really defendable spot, has lots of supplies, is surrounded by farmland, and is very self-sufficient unless the population gets too huge, and is right next to several key roadways and we're on the beach so fishing is viable. In the initial chaos we would lock down and clamp up for a few weeks, then we would start to go out and find survivors to take in and start a community.

Edit: To note though, none of this stuff would happen quickly, and though you are essentially offered protection from the dangers of the world by joining one of these groups, it doesn't mean you'll like it. It's essentially like what we have now, a social contract that might involve putting up with some things you don't agree with. A commune started by military members, for instance, might seem harsh to lots of civilians. We're used to a chain of order and being told to do some shitty things, so I could see some civilians joining and thinking "Man, this sucks ass, I've spent the last 8 hours digging ditches for a construction project."

Well, to a civvie that's a shitty deal, but to us, we're used to it. If my Commander came up to me and said "Take your fireteam and help the engineers dig ditches all day" then I'd be pissed off, but I'd do it grudgingly. You get used to being thought of as just another body for labor and going out there to fill in wherever possible, even when it isn't in your job description, and even when you don't want to. But at the same time there would also be groups formed by the same demographic that decided to do something different, it would be a real mixed bag based on the starting leadership as to how they wanted to run things.

edited 22nd Feb '11 2:06:07 PM by Barkey

They don't think everyone should be allowed break in your home and take your stuff.

This, which is in part - just to reiterate - why we would still have a legal system. No hierarchy is not the same as no law.

I think SS is building up a strawman for the sake of having a rant.

^

He does have a bit of a point about people with no real training or knowledge about how to survive in that climate getting a little too excited about it.

But I can't really argue with him on that because I'd be excited about such an event happening. I mean I'm realistic about my odds, but I'm excited because that kind of chucks me quite a few rungs up the social ladder, once guns, equipment, and a good bit of nerve becomes a prime export.

It'd suck pretty bad for most people though, especially regular civilians who just think it's like playing Fallout.

edited 22nd Feb '11 2:30:09 PM by Barkey

^ Exactly, it might be interesting for YOU, but for me, who is already pretty damn low on the social ladder, I'd be little more than dead weight or another body to do heavy labor. I'm realistic, I know damn well that my chances of survival would be pretty much nil if I wasnt part of a commune, but living in one would still suck ass for me. Basically, my life owuld be even more frustrating and pointless than it is now.

It's not about how humans are all perfectly good and will never do anything bad ever. That's not true and it's not the point. There would still be a legal system.

If there is a legal system, I assume that there is an authority which has made the laws it is based on and empowered individuals to enforce it?