Assimilation vs. Multiculturalism

Nothing more tantalizing than the forbidden, Ettina. That's one reason why I support free speech for everyone, even those I dislike.

The only culture I give a fuck about, ultimately, is my own: by that I mean the things which are important to me on a personal level.

edited 7th Feb '11 5:46:41 PM by MRDA1981

And that's good. Provided you don't try to tell everyone else your hobbies are vitally important.

You mean in some kind of objective, universal sense? People try to pull that shit on me!

Well, I'm not Canadian, breadloaf, so I'll take your word for it that Canada is better. I don't agree, but I'm not familiar enough with your country to be willing to disagree with you on a subject which you presumably know more about.

Yeah culture is actually very important.

Just throwing that out there.

Because y'know, without some kind of culture, we're not people. Just hairless apes with a good grasp of how electricity works.

—

That's all I plan to say on the subject. Because I'm aware that being a culture enthusiast puts me in the minority here (which is paradoxical somewhat, when you consider this is a media site, and media is part of culture. But whatevs) and I really don't feel like arguing about this.

edited 7th Feb '11 3:57:13 PM by SpainSun

I don't think you're in the minority. It's just that the "culture doesn't matter/culture sucks" people are vocal about it.

Probably.

I'm pretty sure Deboss means "culture" in the loaded, ethnic sense, but I could be wrong.

edited 7th Feb '11 4:41:17 PM by MRDA1981

Who says the two are mutually exclusive, Spain?

edited 7th Feb '11 4:44:28 PM by MRDA1981

I meant the media type baggage. If you want an analogy, it's like claiming I can't enjoy/be a stamp collector because I don't think it's vital to humanity.

Well, stamps and stamp collecting are part of culture...

I sort of feel like there's not a hard and fast line between assimilation and multiculturalism, and I actually rather like the way that line is blurred in the U.S. After a generation or two, people tend to identify as American first and have largely American values, yet keep many cultural practices, foods, religion. And since there are already plenty of subgroups that none is overwhelmingly dominant - except in certain small, often rural, areas, of course - the overall 'American' culture doesn't tend to put a ton of pressure on people to give up any practices to 'Be American' in the same way there might be pressure to 'Be British' or 'Be German'. A Japanese-American is no less American than a German-American or an African-American or an Italian-American or a Jewish-American or an Irish-American.... but there is a sort of social, political, popular culture that any American can be a part of.

Well, I'm not Canadian, breadloaf, so I'll take your word for it that Canada is better. I don't agree, but I'm not familiar enough with your country to be willing to disagree with you on a subject which you presumably know more about.

What? That doesn't sound like a sensible reaction. You should be talking to me about our crazy polar bear riding ways as we destroy our seal population with atomic ray guns.

But okay, I'll switch to the European theatre of discussion so I don't just convo kill what we have going on here. So you take Germany as an example of multiculturalism, because I presume, of the large Turkish population. They're having some major integration problems there. Primarily, they're stating that the Turkish population has trouble speaking German, live in their own neighbourhoods and don't interact well with the rest of the German population. So I ask you, does that sound familiar to a situation in the United States some decades ago? I think it should remind you of segregation and even when you outlawed segregation, it continued under other forms.

I think that people press the idea that multiculturalism fails because it promotes some sort of xenophobia or isolationism or some such thing. The real effect is that if the government doesn't tell you anything and children are born and raised in the country, experiencing as little racism and tolerance as possible, which culture do they pick up? Ultimately they pick up the majority culture. They'll learn English, if they're allowed to be in the Canadian school system, alongside everyone else. They'll learn Canadian history, and if they choose to learn history of another country that's additional knowledge, so it is good knowledge. They learn Canadian values, whether they range from liberal to conservative, it's still Canadian values. If you tell me that you want stamp out my particular culture, I think it is valuable to hang onto and defend it against government heavy-handedness.

This also what I think is somewhat contradictory to other American values, the thought of assimilation. On the one hand, Americans want no government interference and freedom. On the other hand they want everyone to act the same and hold the same values. Those two concepts don't mesh. Either you have freedom and government doesn't tell you what to do, or you don't.

Primarily, they're stating that the Turkish population has trouble speaking German, live in their own neighbourhoods and don't interact well with the rest of the German population. So I ask you, does that sound familiar to a situation in the United States some decades ago?

Decades? Any given trip between classes around here you're going to hear at least two or three conversations entirely in Arabic or Chinese.

I'd think it was awesome if I could understand what they were saying >.>

I learnt some Malayalam phrases all because I wanted to understand what my friends were saying. Personally, I like the fact that walking around here I can hear several different languages.

edited 7th Feb '11 7:54:59 PM by rmctagg09

No, mostly I like Germany as an example because they're so afraid of being accused of being Nazis, they don't dare be seen discriminating without justification. Their job with the Turkish population's been less than stellar, but they're in a tough situation, and they're at least trying.

More to the point, I think what you're saying is that multiculturalism doesn't create segregation if done right, correct?

I haven't seen religion on the decline. According to a poll by gallup, more Americans identify with a religion but most americans are religiously illiterate. Meaning that both atheists and theists don't know much about religion.

But I find some atheist movements to be incredibly anti-intellectual.

Yeah actually that is exactly what I'm saying. The whole purpose of multiculturalism is to blow away the entire mentality of segregation. When everyone is treated well, they'll work together and the next generation becomes more assimilated with one another as a natural consequence. That's not a problem to me because cultures change and they change via interaction too, so that's perfectly fine. By making it an open environment it is the difference between Mohawk culture being destroyed involuntarily and Chinese-Canadians speaking primarily English and knowing mandarin or Cantonese as a third language (I count French as second here).

But you raise a point about Germany and Nazism. Want to expand on that?

@ Pykrete

You hear other languages being spoken in a conversation. So what's wrong? You not being taught their languages? I suppose that is an issue. We could press for better language education. I'm always impressed by Europeans in central regions who speak no less than 3 languages and they tell me "Oh I speak English poorly". Yeah. North America? One language (if that). Oorah.

edited 8th Feb '11 6:17:41 PM by breadloaf

I'm not sure that's the belief of all multiculturalists. Don't many of them believe different cultures should be maintained, so globalization doesn't destroy them? If that's not the case, I'd gladly jump on the boat and support multiculturalism, with only the one caveat of a few universal human rights.

Well I can't of course speak for all multiculturalists but I take it as being the same as freedom of religion. Freedom of culture, which means in general, the government is not in the business of promoting or attacking any particular culture. The natural consequence should be that any and all cultures will mingle and change out of such interaction and should be voluntary. Multiculturalism gets us those interesting Canadian+extra cultures.

I mean something like, perhaps I understand the workings of Islam but am not a muslim. I understand some of the teachings of Catholicism but am not a Catholic. But in general, we all share in being Canadian and having more perspectives makes you more globally understanding too. (Mind you that last part is because I'd like us to move past nationalism)

edited 8th Feb '11 9:40:50 PM by breadloaf