Buddhists and Intrigued Non-Buddhist Laymen, CONVERGE HERE

Wow, did this thread really come so close to death in my absence? Well, I guess I'm back for a while at least.

So, I saw this story and almost had a nervous breakdown, until I saw stories like this one which neatly exposed it as a fraud. That, and the fact that there are literally tons of other NDE stories out there, all of which interpret the afterlife in their own way, and not all non-Christians immediately go ot hell.

I guess one important thing I've learned is not to let fear control you, especially when doing so would prevent you from looking for the answers you need.

Hey Aondeug.

Kill all math nerds

A rationalist finds fault with a religion. In other news, Abraham Lincoln has been shot, and George Takei is gay.

The guy who wrote that article doesn't really seem to know what Buddhism is about. No, being a good person and giving up material attachments won't make you immune to being shot, but becoming less attached to your body, which is by all means a material possesion, will help you see how subjective the thing we call "pain" is. The Buddha never claimed his techings would make you invincible, just that they would help put things into perspective and make it possible to cope with the pain we experience in this world.

A lot of atheists don't understand religions any more than religious people understand atheism. It's like someone who not only doesn't like oranges, but doesn't understand how anybody could like oranges. That's the real divide between orange-eaters and aorange-ists.

@randomtropeloser: That story looks quite suspicious to me. In particular this point:

I may be mistaken, but yes, yes you do.

I should research this more, but I get the impression that that account is either heavily redacted or completely fabricated. And just googling the monk's name returns a lot of comments about how yellow fever does not even exist in Burma, about how the name that he allegedly took as a novice does not fit with the Burmese tradition of monk names, and about how the monk under which he allegedly studied died six years before he said he did (and therefore, it would have been impossible for Athet Pyan Shinthaw Paulu to have studied under him).

To be honest, I am strongly skeptical of Near Death Experiences to begin with, but that's another topic.

EDIT: Oh, I saw now that the second link you posted says more or less the same. Right.

A self-proclaimed "rationalist" writing about something that he or she has no clue about, and that he did not bother to research beyond the barest minimum. Ho hum.

It is cute how he is somehow convinced that a handful of rather pedestrian paragraphs was enough to "effectively dissolve" something that was the focus of centuries of intense theological thought. That's on the same level of "if man came from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys around?"

edited 19th Oct '11 12:17:41 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

People who eat things that I know to be disgusting have, to put it simply, bad taste.

People who believe things that I know to be false have, to put it simply, bad brains.

Frankly, I think that's a reasonable demonstration of understanding.

But it's also not as relevant as other things might be.

edited 21st Oct '11 6:52:42 AM by ekuseruekuseru

That depends on whether you're comparing religion to a food you merely might not like (oranges) or something that is plain not edible (vomit).

Oh dear fucking god...Myrm how on earth do you find this shit? Seriously. Oh well. I'll have to read through that and will likely rant the ever living hell about it.

As for lakes of fire...Buddhism has those and much, much, much more. Hell the lakes of fire are the nicer punishment. Don't fuck with Buddhist hells, man. They're very hard to get into, but when you do you will regret everything ever. Gnashing of teeth doesn't even begin to describe the woe. The less crappy crap realms are pretty hellish too. Petta you're basically Tantalus and can't eat or satisfy any wants. As an asura you're always angry. As an animal you're well...a non-human animal and kind of retarded.

Also happy Kathina! Kathina is the end of the rainy season festival celebrated in Buddhist nations that get heavy rains like Thailand. The monks prior to the rains take refuge in vihars and don't leave until the end of the rains. Kathina is basically a "WHOO THE RAIN IS OVER AND OUR MONKS ARE BACK WITH US :D" day. For Kathina I am taking up the fast, sex, and sleeping precepts.

edited 23rd Oct '11 3:31:01 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Hey Aon, have you ever read a translation of Barlaam and Josephat? I recall someone mentioning it in a thread some months ago, but I can't remember if it was you or someone else. . .

I haven't read a translation of the story itself, but I have read summaries of it. I forget who I learned about it from...I think it was someone here. I've mentioned it a few times on the fora.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I was hunting the story down for some time, and finally found a complete English translation of the Greek version of it, translated in 1914.

It's terribly difficult to find a physical copy of the Georgian to English translation though; the closest one to me is being held at The University of Chapel Hill, and when they occasionally pop up on antique sites they're usually at least $50.

Link to the Greek to English version, if interested.

Oooh...yeah physical copies for many such things are a bitch to get one's hands on. Thanks for the link to that. I should give it a read.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Not sure what to think about this.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.

Did this thread really die so badly without me around? Maybe I should start posting book reviews or something.

Whee dead thread. So. Sangha and the importance thereof. This group of monks and nuns must be important. An entire portion of the canons are devoted to rules specifically for them. A good deal of the sutta are speaking towards the Sangha. The third basket was written as sort of a condensed summary of the whole thing for their convenience. Pretty much everywhere you go the Sangha play a vital part in the schools. BUT WHY. Surely Buddhism could exist without them.

It certainly could. The reason for the existence of the Sangha is one of benefit though. It is beneficial for the order to exist. On the surface they provide services like counseling, funeral services, wedding services, and schooling (in the past you sent your sons off to be novices to get them learned and still do in certain countries). On another level we delve into the world of Buddhism's belief in rebirth. The Sangha are providing the laity with the wisdom and knowledge they need to get closer to the goal at a faster rate than they would naturally. This in theory leads to them eventually being reborn as monks themselves, beings who will have a much easier time at being reborn.

So why don't we all become monks some may ask. Simple. The principle behind Enlightenment is one of detachment. Monkhood is a state of life that more or less puts you in the best possible situation to nurture what you need to reach that. All those rules and vows create a nice buffer between you and falling back into deeper levels of attachment and want. However some of these rules make it damn near impossible for the Sangha to exist on their own. They can't kill, they can't make money, they can't have families. If everyone were monks the human race would die out. So the laity exists to support the Sangha who in turn support the laity and lead them into becoming monks themselves, creating a cycle of Enlightenment that uses the very system that is beating us down to our advantage. It's a rather ingenious system Theravada has going on.

The other branch Mahayana have schools that make changes to many of the rules that the monks follow. Such as the no family restriction. Despite these small changes and the greater emphasis on becoming shepherd Bodhisatta the system works largely the same way. Laity supports monks' physical existence, monk teaches laity, laity becomes reborn as monk, monk reaches Enlightenment or Bodhisattahood, repeat.

Of course we could argue if the universe even works this way, but if it does then the various schools of Buddhism generally have very good systems going. In theory at least. Practice is where things count and people are flawed. Which in a way makes this very way of doing things a weapon against us. A large and poisoned order could do a great deal of damage to Buddhism's goal and image. Strangely I feel that makes it ever more important to keep at the least the base idea of the system going though. We'll get out together while pulling one another up even if we fall down and we'll be ever spurred on by supposed evidence that organized religion is a horrible idea.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

"Somebody needs to plant the rice"?

I can dig that.

Yes indeed. WE ARE JUST SEEDS BEING TENDED TO BY THE FARMER MONKS.

And hello Kraken.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

What I mean is that not everyone can be monks because there are things that the world needs that monks can't make or do.

And hello to you too. I don't post much in Covens, but here I am.

That is what I meant that you meant. Meant.

Why are we confused now?

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Because I was born confused, my child.

What's your excuse?

My mother and I have the power of switching our hair colors making me temporarily blonde!

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

That's hardly a viable excuse.

GASP.

I must pray that Amitabha forgives me.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Aon is back? WOOOOO! There was no way I was going to get this thread back on its feet by myself. I'm no Buddhologist. Hell, I'm barely even a Buddhist.