What Madoka wanted wasn't just to save everyone from turning into witches, but to let them have their wishes granted (with a more reasonable sacrifice) if that was what they truly wanted. Most of them understood they were risking their lives and thought their wish was worth that, so Madoka only took away the unfair outcome: mutating into a soulless abomination without even being warned that was a possibility.
Madoka wanted to offer people an actual choice, agency instead of futility or cosmic manipulation; a The Magic Goes Away ending wouldn't be much better than Kyubey's soul scamming, in that sense. (And they might all end up living naked in caves.
) This is also what makes Akuma Homura morally confusing, because she gives everyone their heart's desire with no real downsides, but doesn't give them a choice in the matter.
Kyubey could have at least created a support network for magical girls. Witches are not soulless abomination, they are human being tormented by the world. Kyouko and Madoka failed to help Sayaka because their didn't realized that and focused on trying to make remember something she already knew. Note that she had stopped hating Kyouko before she became a witch and never attacked her until Kyouko starting fighting. While she started to resent Madoka and attacks her the moment she starts talking.
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
He doesn't care enough to do that.
Besides, the whole point of the system is to turn the girls into witches.
One Strip! One Strip!
Yes it is which is probably why he uses child soldiers who will break down from the pressure more easily. A human building the system wouldn't do that or would have a network to help witches recover.
edited 23rd Jul '15 11:40:20 AM by higurashimerlin
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
World's Cutest Direwolf
Witches recovering is directly stated to be impossible pre-Madokami. And judging from their willingness to investigate the possible existence of Madokami based on the say-so of one insane alien juvenile, the coobs are nothing if not ready to science out remote possibilities.
Bird mom
Yeah if they could turn witches back to Magical Girls I imagine the incubators would. Rather than expending their effort into making new contracts they could set up a scenario where they would trap the girls in a cycle of witchification and dewitchifcation until the Magical Girls died either due to old age or a violent death. Not any more humane than their current system mind you, but it feels like that would be highly efficient.
The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It is impossible to make a witch into a magical girl. Doesn't mean witches can't heal somewhat.
Bird mom
They can't heal because thier existence is built on despair and fueled by despair.
edited 23rd Jul '15 3:52:27 PM by RhymeBeat
The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
World's Cutest Direwolf
Sure, if you get some divine intervention involved.
It shouldn't take divine power given that they have human minds.
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
World's Cutest Direwolf
And yet the only thing across the franchise, so far as I'm aware, that made any progress in bringing a witch back to sanity involved divine intervention. And Sufficiently Advanced Alien intervention, to boot.
And those human minds never seem to prevent witches from attacking any nearby humans, including the ones that were their friends when they were meguca. So good luck finding a useful therapeutic method in between efforts to not get killed.
@Rhyme Beat: The Incubators would only ever switch systems if it proved to be more efficient. If cyclical life of oscillating between witch and magical girl was less efficient than just getting more magical girls and letting them all become witches permanently, then they would stick with the permanently becoming witches system.
They proved this in Rebellion when they chose to try and bring back the witch system over the wraith system. Moreover we know with a sufficiently large payout they are perfectly willing to allow the world to be destroyed (my guess is the either have other species that they use as well or Madoka becoming Gretchen produced enough energy that they calculate a new species will be ready for exploitation by the time that energy runs out).
edited 23rd Jul '15 4:39:28 PM by BigMadDraco
Sayaka only attack Kyouko when she started fighting. She was already starting to resent Madoka and still only attack her she started trying to talk to her.
H.N Elly also ignored Madoka until she got in the way of the mass suicide.
edited 23rd Jul '15 4:51:57 PM by higurashimerlin
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
World's Cutest Direwolf
I think the mass suicide counts as attacking nearby humans, myself.
Is it kosher to bring in stuff outside the main story? Because Suzune has a witch open hostilities on a group that includes her former comrades staring aghast.
They said attacking any nearby human. H.N Elly ignored Madoka until she got in the way and Sayaka ignored Kyouko until she started actually attacking. She didn't even attack on instinct that Kyouko was holding a weapon. It is pretty clear that how what they think of people informs how they deal with them.
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
They're both pretty isolated witches, though. Oktavia just listens to her musical minions and Kirsten sits in her box or whatever.
Heart of Stone
Yeah and Sayaka isolated herself because she doesn't really care anymore about what happens as long as nothing bothers her. She just dreams about the past.
Funny that you bring up the spinoffs given that to my knowledge Kirika never attack Oriko.
Madoka as a witch also tries to make everyone in the world happy but is too naive to do it right. She doesn't do it in a respectful way or acknowledge to their problems, wishes and agency.
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
World's Cutest Direwolf
And destroys the world, evidently.
As far as Kirika goes, I'm pretty sure she's using her time magic to lengthen her own witchout, hence the barrier appearing with no witch until she turns into Margot. Which could explain her retaining some shred of rationality during her short lifespan.
It should be noted that neither Homulily nor her familiars attacked Madoka in Rebellion. It's possible that a Homulily couldn't attack Madoka because Homura's wish was to protect her and Margot didn't attack Oriko because she wished to be a different Kirika for Oriko.
It's just speculation. It's equally likely that both are the result of unique circumstances. Kirika becoming a witch in slow motion and Homura becoming a witch in a world witches can't exist.
Madoka being naive does destroy the world yes. But there is no lost of rationality. Sayaka simply isolated herself and only fought when people try fighting her or against Madoka who she came to resent. Madoka tries to bring happiness to the world but is naive and traps them in a labyrinths that doesn't respect the people she is trying to save and they die after awhile.
Homura also tried to make a better place for her friends but didn't notice the trap and altered all of their memories including her own. And then tries to commit suicide by magical girl to protect Madoka. Mami forces people to remain in her labyrinths because she wants friends and is willing to keep people with her by force. It is clear they have the desires as before their soul gems become grief seeds. There is no magical, they are a monster now thing. Both Madokami and Sayaka and becoming a part of the law of cycles acknowledge this.
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
There is very much a loss of rationality, there is just no loss of self. Witches go about the desires they had before, but in ways that are utter mad.
I'm Ruthless.
Actually, in The Different Story, Madoka's wish was to undo Sayaka's transformation, and it worked perfectly.
Of course, there was still The Walpurgisnacht and Mami seems to have died or not be present to fight her for some reason, but the manga ends on a positive note, even if Homura seems to be already very resigned to the idea of defeat by the last time we see her.
You claim that God is opressing us, but I see you opressing others without needing a God.
What I mean is that they have same intelligence as before even if they use it in a self-destructive way but regular people are also known to do that. They don't have any magical impulse to commit acts of violence as they either becomes witch through despair like Sayaka and Mami in the psp game and Sayaka only attacks Kyouko when she starts attacking and Madoka who she already started to resent. And Mami who forces people to stay in her labyrinth and be her friends. And Madoka who became a witch without despairing is just trying to make people happy but is naive and ends the world without meaning to.
The Witch Barriers do contain a lot of symbolism regarding who the girls were before they turned bad.
On a more critical note, do you think this has any good points to it?
Do you think that the philosophy used in Madoka could be done a bit better?
I'm not sure Madoka would need to take care of those things. I think that without Kyubey needing to recruit Magical Girls, Mami dying in a car crash, Kyoko's family being destitute, and Kyousuke's hand being injured all fall under the realm of "Sometimes shit happens."
Without the umbrella of Magical Girl wishes, they're just a sample of the kind of bad things that happen in a world where bad things happen. A lot of people are poor, crippled, and/or die tragically every day.
That's part of what makes Kyubey so dangerous: as is typical of Devil figures, he preys on the desperate, appearing to people in dire need and offering everything their heart desires if they'll just sign their soul away - and in any society, there will always be someone who is suffering.
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