Chrono Trigger

An entire 30+ hour video game that dozens of programmers, artists, and at least one musician worked on does not exist solely to resolve a plot thread in a related game.

It's not a direct sequel, and just because its ending has greater meaning due to its ties to a previous game doesn't invalidate the entire story and gameplay experience preceding it.

Except it is by definition a direct sequel. Even eschewing the fact that whole game is a product of what happened in the prequel, the game reveals at the end that everything is about answering the fate of a single character from Trigger. How is that not a direct sequel, and if not, then what is a direct sequel to you then one that picks up the plot threads and questions from its predecessor?

The ending is not enriched by its ties to Chrono Trigger, it is irrelevant without it.

And besides that point, I'm not calling it a fucking bad game. It's fine on its own merits, my point is that it doesn't deserve to be judged as "another Chrono game" like Kato intended.

edited 12th Mar '18 1:49:26 PM by Mr.Badguy

Yeah, I mean, there's A LOT going on in Cross. The Dario and Demihuman subplots have nothing to do with CT, for instance. Although I always wondered if Demihumans are related to Fiends in some way? Also they were called Fiends in teh translation I played but that makes them sound evil. I can see why teh original translation called them Mystics or whatever.

That same mostly irrelevant side character you dismissed a few posts ago?

I hadn't even played Trigger when I beat Cross, so I had no idea she was an existing character from that game, and frankly didn't care. There were a few times when the plot had me scratching my head, but I chalked that up to bad writing or troubled development (revealing in an info dump that Lynx was Serge's father all along tipped me off that things probably didn't develop exactly as intended.)

The overwhelming majority of the storytelling and events in Cross are self contained and don't rely on Trigger at all. If the two were thoroughly linked together, to the point that the story assumes you're intimately familiar with the events of the first game throughout, I'd buy it as a direct sequel. As is, it's mostly an unrelated story suffering some fallout from the events of Trigger.

If you found a less abrasive way to state your dissatisfaction with it we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

edited 12th Mar '18 1:54:58 PM by Hashil

The game expects you to know who Balthasar, Schala, the Ghost Kids and Lavos are. If you knew who they were then that's less confusion.

Like, Shadow Hearts II is about the same main character, but it has entirely new maps, characters, villains, everything. It's still a direct sequel to the first that only makes sense as a story knowing that its predecessor happened, unlike, say, Shadow Hearts I, which can be played without having to know who Koudelka is outside of a single reference in a graveyard and two characters. If you didn't play Koudelka, then Roger Bacon is just some funny guy who shows up and Koudelka is just a party member's mom. But then if the game went "by the way the entire climax of the story requires intimate knowledge of Koudelka" then it would be, by definition, a direct sequel.

edited 12th Mar '18 2:01:44 PM by Mr.Badguy

A couple things I've noticed in terms of gameplay and somebody confirmed these are bugs:

1. Diminish never wears off. I thought maybe it just lasted a ridiculously long time but, nope, it's permanent even though the description says temporary.

2. If you input commands fast enough, you get more turns than you should. I had noticed that if I mashed the Attack button I'd get in another attack but if I held off the enemy got their turn.

All this adds up to why melee really does reign supreme by the mid game. Shame but I still love this combat system. There's more involvement to it than an FF game at least.

I just got Grobyc and am about to go to Hermit's Hideaway. I think this is about when the flood of party members starts.

Also I liked that I met Guile in the Termina tavern but he refused to join me. He asked me to understand and that was it. Understand what, pal? You didn't give me an actual reason why you won't rejoin my party right now. He was right there too when it all went down at the top of Fort Dragonia. We've been through so much together....

So when I first played the game I screwed it up and didn't manage to complete the Marbule sidequest. Boy was I mad, mainly because I heard i couldn't get the Rainbow equipment.

However I did everything right this time around and was surprised to find an artistic masterpiece. I had heard the song before but it's so much more than just that song. It' a whole rock opera! Why isn't this as famous as the FFVI opera? They clearly pushed the artistic limits of what the PS 1 could handle.

It's also just really awesome how the music keeps playing during the battles. Sets the mood so perfectly. I had a team of Fargo and Marcy help clear Marbule for full story purposes.

Marcy is just really good too. Been using her since then.

edited 13th Mar '18 1:30:08 PM by Nikkolas

Clearing out monsters from Marbule while Nikki's rocking out from the Zelbess is a high point, yeah.

But the answer to every "why isn't X more memorable" from Chrono Cross question is because the sodium levels from it not being a perfect followup to Trigger make every redeemable thing about it invalid in a lot of fans eyes.

Seems like I harp on that a lot but you saw the last conversation here.

God forbid people not like a video game enough. Quelle dommage.

I was answering a question. You don't need to come shit over every mention of Chrono Cross.

edited 13th Mar '18 1:32:14 PM by Hashil

I mean your answer was about "sodium levels" preventing people from appreciating Cross enough, as if its inherently entitled to that for being a decent enough game with pretty graphics and good music.

Maybe Cross was just lost to time like every other game. No of course it's just salty Chrono Trigger fans not appreciating it enough.

When its entire legacy is how poor a follow up to Trigger it is, than yes, I think it's a lot more than just it being lost to time. Plenty of other good games are mostly forgotten. This one isn't that - it's unfairly judged and often hated due to its predecessor. Nikkolas brought up one of its many great scenes independent of it, though, which goes on to invalidate your spiel about it being wholly reliant on Trigger.

And yet here we are again.

edited 13th Mar '18 1:41:16 PM by Hashil

Hating something for being a poor follow up is a valid way to feel (which, because you apparently don't read my posts, is not what I think, since I've stated multiple times that Cross is fine and has plenty of its own good moments, and is weakened by its connections to Trigger). You must have experienced at least one disappointing sequel in your life.

And if you really want to drudge this argument back up, I'd be happy to inform you that the entire climax of the game is reliant on Trigger.

edited 13th Mar '18 1:45:45 PM by Mr.Badguy

Quel dommage*. Quel as used there is inveriable, and dommage isn't even feminine in french anyway.

You can go back to arguing

edited 13th Mar '18 1:56:41 PM by Yumil

French is supposed to be my second language. I feel very silly now.

I tend to avoid sequels that are riding off of the previous one especially hard unless I hear they're any good.

I think the climax is kind of bad in general, and not just because of the Trigger ties. But it doesn't hurt the game that much since the rest is good enough.

See that I agree with. When the game is adding and expanding new things to the Chrono world like the sentience of the planet, the Dragonians, and how FATE is Mother Brain from the good version of 2300 AD, that's when it's at its best.

If the game didn't go "btdubs; Schala" at the end after the climactic fight with the Dragon God, I'd like it a lot more. It deserved to be its own, ambitious game.

I dislike Crono Cross with a passion, but I'd never accuse it of being a bad looking game. For its generation, I'd argue it's one of the gems.

IMO Cross is a good game on its own merits that is worth experiencing at least once. It's much more uneven than Trigger, but I think the high points/strong moments of Cross actually give it higher highs. The opening when you get sent to alternate Termina for the first time, the body swap twist and how it's executed, etc. Its main problem besides the connection to Trigger is that it's trying to handle too many themes instead of just focusing on one or two. The environmentalism angle, to me, was not really necessary. The alternate world stuff/exploring the meaning of choice and how it affects people's lives is way more fleshed out and more compelling.

Also I'm sorry but even today while Cross is dated, it's not anywhere near as ugly as the early PS 1 games. Its aesthetics are top notch.

edited 13th Mar '18 3:04:06 PM by Draghinazzo

Sure, it's not the worst, but it's still very dated, especially compared to CT's art style which has aged like a fine wine.

I really don't think its character models or most of the other visual elements in the game are dated enough that it detracts from the experience in any measurable way. The comparison with 3D models and sprites is generally valid in many situations (see Final Fantasy 7 vs Final Fantasy Tactics and how the latter looks much better today), but this isn't really the best example.

edited 13th Mar '18 3:07:39 PM by Draghinazzo

PSX games are objectively going to age poorly but you could do a lot worse than Chrono Cross' high poly models and utterly gorgeous backgrounds.

Honestly part of me wishes I didn't like Trigger so much. I feel like I would like Cross in a vacuum but I just can't stop seeing it as edgy fan-fiction.

edited 13th Mar '18 3:10:12 PM by LordVatek

nvm, misunderstood what you said.

Chrono Cross does have the additional aethetic hurdle IIRC, I believe Toriyama didn't return for character design?

edited 13th Mar '18 3:10:50 PM by Sigilbreaker26

He did not.