The New Touhou Character Alternate Interpretation Compendium!

Considering her ability, it makes sense that she would say that. Such a place would be the Akashic Records to her. To everyone else, it's just a gathering of worthless spirits. The divine spirits themselves aren't special. If that makes any sense.

edited 4th Jan '13 6:22:49 PM by Otherarrow

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Well that makes her power invaluable, since she can basically see the desires of humans there and act accordingly, like with Reimu where she basically made fun of her.

But another thing I noticed is that her power seems limited to humans or at least work better on them. A clear example was in So PM that showed that she was basically clueless about the desires of Kanako or Byakuren, that could explain why Miko was very defensive at first.

I wonder why, though- If it were someone like Yukari, I could understand, but we know for a fact that Byakuren was once human, and Kanako might have been, too, albeit eons ago. Regardless of that, they both have very human mannerisms and motivations, so I can't quite see how Miko couldn't understand their desires...

I sure said that!

Maybe she didn't try? After all, that wouldn't be sporting, now would it?

She does have those earmuffs to "adjust" how much she hears after all.

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Hmm... that would be understandable with unknown Youkai or Kanako, but she was clearly not fond on Byakuren, to her she was the monk that build a temple above her tomb to maintain the seal on her, yet with Reimu she could grasp her heart and intentions even when drunk.

She came in with a low opinion of Byakuren, and didn't see it as necessary, and, again, it would be unsporting. Miko doesn't want to look desperate in front of Byakuren now.

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Miko's power could be compared to Satori's mind reading, one can't really tell if she is doing it or not. But I can concede the point that she wasn't using her powers just to prove she is superior to them.

I really think this is the case. I, too, see her as kind of like the Sherlock holmes ultimate deducer.

But the thing is, she sees Byakuren as a Youkai, and Kanako as a God. So no matter how human their motivations are, she's going to make some false assumptions, either because they aren't human and she has no experience with nonhuman thought until very recently... or because they aren't human but they still have very human thoughts.

Basically, she needs to calibrate her ability to deal with gods and youkai, if she even can. I mean, meeting Youmu threw her for a loop, too, because she started with the simple assumption that a lack of desire for life and death meant that Youmu was a fellow hermit. And if the starting point for the deduction is wrong, then of course nothing deduced from it is any better than a random guess.

One can easily tell if Satori's doing her mind reading. Here's a quick tell: Is she in the room? If yes, then yes. If no, then maybe. If that's not an easy enough tell, then she makes it clear enough with just about every sentence she speaks, so...

edited 4th Jan '13 7:59:36 PM by Antimatter625

I write some fanfiction. Satori's Tale is done... but I'm not.

Is this a fact now? Does this not contradict Scarlet Weather Rhapsody? So, is the argument that this does in fact retcon Scarlet Weather Rhapsody?

There are a few things on this. It is possible that there are too many people there, so too many desires to read. She could read 10 desires at once from one person, but everyone there at once? Maybe not.

Also, was she really clueless about Kanako and Byakuren? Let's put it this way, understanding their intentions does not necessarily give her any way on how to get around it. For example, she doesn't even need her ability to know that Byakuren is hostile. Even if you know they have hostile intent, it does not necessarily mean you can pacify it.

Everything is relative.

@Otherarrow Did I apologize to you? If not, I'm sincerely sorry. I got carried away with thought, and as you can see, I do get worried that I don't know or think hard enough about Touhou.

It's either a retcon or a reveal from the WAHH chapter where Suiki tried to destroy Seiga. Komachi said to Kasen that Shinigami killing hermits is a rumour they spreaded on purpose.

The way we reconciled it was, Shinigami are sent to hermits, and even celestials such as Tenshi, since during Kanako's cold fusion show, Kasen said she already fought Shinigami, just a few chapters ago. But what no one knows is, these Shinigami are only giving them a little test, and not seriously trying to kill them. When the Ministry of Right and Wrong wants someone dead for real, they sent Kishin Chiefs.

edited 5th Jan '13 1:11:36 AM by atrican

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The secret Netherworld report. First, save a copy of IAMP's Yuyuko good ending. Second, replace all the "refined elegance" (Endings Wiki translation) with "wabi" 佗, and "simple elegance" with "sabi" 寂, because these are the original words.

Essentially, by viewing the Suika incident from Yuyuko's perspective, this ending links up IAMP with the theme of PCB - the quest for a Japanese ideal of beauty. But for now, we can just focus on what it reveals about Touhou universe.

When you hear people talking about Japanese aesthetics in the West, "wabi-sabi" is a word often mentioned. But "wabi" and "sabi" were at first two different words. To quote Wikipedia:

In short, "wabi" is the simplicity and the lack of artificial refinedness of rustic objects. Japanese aesthetes would go to great lengths to make artificial things look plain, simple and natural. That's why some of the most valuable Japanese teawares look like they are crafted by children's hands, unevenly shaped and full of bumps.

The rust on bronze artifacts. The fainted color and tear and wear on used objects. The sense of "lived-in" that pro 3D environment artists are always trying to achieve.

Back to the IAMP ending, it says: "there is no sabi in Netherworld." "There is only wabi outside of the Present World, that's why the Netherworld is a place of eternity. If the Present World see the wabi accrued in Netherworld, they would probably think it was sabi." ("Present World" is a Buddhist concept, and I guess in Touhou can be just understood as "the mortal world".)

To convert the ZUN-cryptum into normal language:

- In realms outside of the mortal world, the passage of time has no effect. In Netherworld, metal will not rust, the long stair to Hakugyukurou will not crumble, and the aroma of Yuyuko's tea will not become dispersed and unrecognizable.

- Instead, Netherworld has wabi. The accumulated wabi ensures everything in Netherworld is not forever sparklingly clean and new, but rather has the appearance of having experienced the passage of time.

This is clearly also related to why Netherworld has no impurity.

I really want to quote this good example from The Chrysanthemum and the Sword. It's near the end of Chapter 12, and shows how ridiculous wabi-sabi in reality could get:

Sweeping away real fallen pine needles from trees, and then putting pine needles from elsewhere under them to make them look natural. Aesthetics.

edited 5th Jan '13 1:48:53 AM by atrican

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Reading the dialogue, Tenshi assumes that Komachi has come to claim her soul, and Komachi just rolls with it. At no point does she lie, the mistake lies completely in the Celestials court. Plus Komachi calls it a 'secret' in WaHH, which implies she doesn't go around telling people left right and centre, otherwise it wouldn't be a secret anymore.

edited 5th Jan '13 1:51:34 AM by asterism

Heart of Stone

They also gravitate towards Marisa. My impression was that it had to do with her personality, rather than her goals. Desires are attracted to desires.

atrican: No worries, we are cool.

As for Miko and shinigami, yes, the most recent retcon/reveal is that shinigami don't reap, they test. So Miko is going to her first shinigami meeting expecting a serious fight, and might be disappointed.

Maybe it will be a battle of wills? That might impress Miko.

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>The dialogue in games is meaningless

I was kinda jesting, by immediately following the previous quote up with a contradictory quote that says "don't look for any deeper meaning in Touhou".

To be honest, I have never tried to understand TD's plot until today, so my raw thought process might be unrefined. (The following is from Touhou Wiki, with small corrections.)

Prologue:

Reimu's route:

The desires are prayers/wishes. (This is the first time I notice the Prologue and Yuyuko literally said that. I was only extrapolating when I wrote "prayers and demands" on the last page, and I was going to edit "demands" into "wishes"...) Seiga gives the reason as Miko being capable of "embracing" desires, but doesn't explain its meaning. According to Seiga, Miko's capability to embrace many desires is due to her great virtue that can save the world, not because of her evilness.

Miko gained the power to listen to human desires through humanity's faith in her. Interesting, but may or may not be relevant.

I skimmed through Marisa's scenario, and didn't find the part where vulgar spirits gather toward her. Someone please help find the quote for me :-).

I'll read through the other 2 scenarios tomorrow. I hope.

edited 5th Jan '13 6:30:26 AM by atrican

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It's from one of her endings. I can't remember the details.

And now that I'm thinking more clearly I seem to recall that divine spirits and vulgar are exactly the same thing, Futo just has a different word for them.

edited 5th Jan '13 6:35:06 AM by Clarste

You could get that from Komachi's dialogue. But, in her ending, it talks about her wanting to switch jobs and how she would fight celestials who would say they were not afraid of death.

I am arguing that the "test" is serious. It is not one of those tests that have no consequences upon failure. So, while technically, they don't reap, the test is not any easier than a serious fight.

Miko - She can hear 10 different things at once and if some desires are missing, her judgement fails. She begins to make assumptions because of those missing desires. I see her ability as an ability to read intent. This gives her quite an advantage when conversing with people.

Everything is relative.

Well the way I see it: if a hermit lose against a Shinigami then he/she will believe that it's training failed, so the result is that the hermit will accept death and it will come naturally to him/her.

edited 5th Jan '13 6:58:22 PM by asellus111

Back to TD plot interpretation...

First, an interesting detail from Reimu's normal ending (No.1): the building and artifacts of Senkai looks familiar to Reimu. She seemed to have seen such things at the moon or Tenkai.

Second, Sanae's entire motivation during TD is to become a stronger goddess. She thought she could absorb divine spirits as a replacement for gathering faith, and set out on adventure by her own will, without even consulting the two gods. This is also likely why she builds up spirit gauge faster: because she's a goddess herself.

>The characters find them a nuisance

None of the characters find the spirits a nuisance.

Marisa said to Reimu, "If things go on like this, we won't be able to go flower viewing tomorrow." When she said that, she didn't really mean the spirits are disturbing flower viewing, she meant they two have to go investigate the spirits, and Reimu knew it, too. Youmu also wanted to investigate, and Sanae has already been discussed. The Taoists all see the vulgar spirits as a good omen.

>Marisa attracts vulgar spirits

I still haven't found anything that says that. What Marisa's ending showed, is that Marisa can listen to the desires of the spirits. But it's nothing special: Reimu can also do it ("these are... the voices from hearts taken shape..."), she just didn't spell those desires out during her story.

Marisa's normal ending (No.3) goes like this: when Miko appeared in the human village, the divine spirits were nowhere to be found. "Perhaps they got absorbed by Miko, the true divine spirit". I don't know about the English patch, but the VG Boy translation happens to have mistranslated the word "absorb/assimilate" as "gather".

So in the end, everything I deduced from a few quotes yesterday is entirely correct, since they are all verified by direct quotes from the game. The whole reason the spirits are gathering to Miko, is to be absorbed by her and make her into a goddess.

What truly happened in TD is this: we witnessed Miko's apotheosis, and through this story, we are reminded of the nature of gods: they are none other than humanity's desires, projected onto an object or a person, and given a name, shape and personality. The desires in themselves are only vulgar spirits; but when they are offered to a hero in history, the desires and the hero combined to become a god.

But of course, because this is Touhou, the story turns out to be one half myth-making, and one half farce. Which is the only right way to do it. (See also: Northrop Frye's "story modes" theory)

edited 6th Jan '13 6:44:02 AM by atrican

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Except any mention of Miko being a god in her later appearance refers to Shotoku's near mythical status, not any transformation she herself had. Indeed, she doesn't seem to be a god at all.

I still think it's more likely that they gathered around her due to her power and ability, then disappeared when she fully awakened and left to her little pocket world. I mean, it's not like they were just floating around before the incident. Them disappearing isn't strange, it was them showing up that was strange and now that they left, incident solved!

It's pretty common in Touhou to have the "official" incident be basically just a irrelevant side effect of what's really going on.

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Well, the ending said "Miko, the true divine spirit"; Clarste gave a SOPM quote that says she's a goddess; the TD Extra story emphasized that she's an avatar, a manifestation of a god/Buddha in order to save mankind. All these sources refer to Miko specifically, not Shoutoku.

Regarding Miko's transformation, I think accurately speaking, she has already become a divine spirit a long time ago. The spirits are gathered here to offer humanity's wishes to her, and in turn, give her potency.

Regarding her personality: Miko is a sleeping hero, or a divine king, not a goddess who sits in a shrine.

>Difference between vulgar spirit and divine spirit

If I remember SOPM correctly, it's quite important for the faith/desires (which are shown by TD to be related) to have some core to attach to. Kanako and Miko are divine spirits with faith attached; Suwako is pure faith, and will disappear if no one believes in her.

EDIT: Nah. Suwako will disappear, because she has nothing else. Without faith, Kanako will become a youkai, and Miko may stay a hermit.

So what matters, is the desires must be shaped into a god. A historical hero is just one of the ways it happens.

edited 6th Jan '13 7:48:01 AM by atrican

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On the topic of Marisa collecting divine spirits, if I remember correctly in TD she either had a lower collection bar or a small magnetic field of sorts for picking up items. So this is likely where that thought comes from. However, there's probably some Gameplay and Story Segregation, since given her talents as thief she's probably just grabbing items quicker than the others could.

As for Miko... I don't really have anything to say about her.

edited 6th Jan '13 12:23:46 PM by Horselesshorseman

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Marisa has a lower collection line in first gen Windows games, and a larger field for absorbing spirits in TD.

I actually have an explanation for Marisa's TD ability, but first I need more story sources, otherwise it's just a WMG.

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Marisa's TD ability is "easier collection of items", not just spirits. It appears to be another iteration of Marisa's traditional thief ability (lower point of collection, no need to focus in IN, etc), not something special.

According to PMISS, only deified human souls are true divine spirits, so Kanako and Miko (and possibly Sanae) are divine spirits, while Suwako isn't.

I seriously need to re-read So PM, because I captured less than half it says when it first came out.

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If we're talking about in-game abilities, I think Reimu's auto-collection of spirits during trance would be the most relevant

edited 7th Jan '13 6:06:55 PM by Hylarn