The New Touhou Character Alternate Interpretation Compendium!

It's more of a Moon Cold War if anything.

With one of the sides never knowing that they were at war or that, indeed, the other side existed.

...Are all Lunarians paranoid or something?

Yes.

Kaguya doesn't seem to be

Unless I'm mistaken, Kaguya did approach Eirin to make the Hourai elixir because she feared being assassinated or something? Which would fit the paranoia.

Netherworld writeup is in progress. Should have it done in a day or two.

Its not explicitly stated but its been implied a few places that the Lunar Capital (can you have a capital if you don't have any other cities? Are there Lunar suburbs and Lunar boonies? Maybe a smaller, less nice city where the rabbits live?) has some political divisiveness or something.

>Kaguya fearing assassination

No canon supports this idea. Her motive for making the elixir is given in her IN profile as 興味本位 "out of curiosity" ("self-interest" is a mistranslation).

>Lunar Capital

Of course Lunar Capital can be called such without other cities.

Technically the character 都 "capital", has also been used to mean "metropolis" or even "city" in modern Japanese, but those are not the intended meaning here.

edited 25th Dec '12 9:46:57 PM by atrican

Kaguya doesn't need to be paranoid. She's immortal, remember?

But yeah, I don't think she was ever paranoid. Which actually implies she's not the same as the other Lunarians, which might explain why she deliberately made herself 'impure' out of curiosity.

edited 26th Dec '12 2:42:58 AM by asterism

There are things other than death to fear

Makes being "invited" home by Yuyuko sound even more pleasent than it did before. I wonder what Netherworld tea tastes like.

I am not sure it would be that pleasant. I am pretty sure her ability to "invite you to Death" is basically an evolution of her ability to manipulate dead souls. Basically, her ability is the ability to manipulate any soul, and her calling something to death is basically her using her ability to pull someone's soul out of their body and to the Netherworld (killing them in the process).

The reason her ability doesn't work on Mokou/Kaguya is because the elixir makes their souls eternal.

At least, that is how I came to see it. If that makes sense.

I thought it worked differently, I thought it was simply manipulating death itself. Doesn't somebody say all souls are drawn to death? I thought it worked like gravity: the closer you are the stronger the effect. So if Yuyuko manipulated death toward you it would pull you towards it. Sort of like an out of body experience except for the part where you go back in.

It sounds really weird putting it in words like that.

Edit: now that I think about there's not much difference between your explanation and mine so I'm not really sure where i was going with this.

edited 26th Dec '12 8:48:04 AM by Shiroimahotsukai

The reason for my explanation is because, well, we never see someone just up and get a new ability. Take Mary for instance. She started out with just the ability to see the supernatural boundaries, but over time gained the ability to cross them (at first unconsciously, then consciously), then the ability to take someone else with her. Mary's power didn't change, it evolved.

That's what I think actually happened to Yuyuko. Her ability to manipulate departed souls didn't change to being able to manipulate death, but rather, it evolved into the ability to manipulate any soul. As pointed out to me many times, she doesn't actually so much manipulate death as cause it. She can't undo death.

If that makes any sense.

Not so. Moon rabbits gossip all the time, so she won't even know if the information she has is fake or real. For all she knows, the rabbits from the moon told Reisen that the war was terrible and many of her companions died. Now, as for names and specifics, well, that part gets left out, because gossip.

But the Lunar War was a thing. Lunarians are paranoid people. I think it was the planting of the flag that was the signal for war. I think the 3 fairies manga talked briefly about that.

And what do you mean by motivation of the plot on Eirin's side?

We have enough context to tell that Paradise and Heaven are two different places. Heaven for one, could be reached by Reimu and co. Which is impossible in the case of Paradise. The distance between Paradise and earth is far longer than the distance between the moon and earth. They already have some trouble going to the moon, there is no way they can reach Paradise, which is more than 1 universe distance away or something.

No, they have not seen Heaven or Hell, which isn't the point. It is the distance, even if it is according to myth that is the point. Hell is somewhat far underground and is a huge area, and then Paradise is further and bigger still.

Mary and Renko were not speaking in terms of facts that they actually knew. They were just basically chatting about myths. Now, if they went to Heaven and Hell and confirmed all of this, OK, fine, but they didn't. Hell, it turns out that Mary was wrong and she has never been to Hell at all. Trying to take what they said in their idle chatting about rumors at face value is silly.

As mentioned, there was no actual war. At the very most, it was a Moon Cold War...with one of the sides not knowing of the other's existence.

Also, if I recall, Eirin's motivation in IN was to stop Lunarian envoys from coming down to take Reisen and discovering Eientei, due to Reisen receiving a letter mentioned how badly the Lunarians were getting creamed by the advanced weapons humans had in 2004 and needed Reisen's help.

...Which now makes no sense, since we now know that there wasn't a war, human technology is more or less equal to what it is in the real world, and the Lunarians are so perfect that if something was a threat to them, Reisen wouldn't really be much of a help.

She can communicate back with them so she could just ask "hey, are Joe, Meg, and Slagathor dead or alive?"
"Oh, they're alive. You'll never believe even but Slagathor is dating Mordac now"
"Shut up!"
"Its true!"
"It so isn't"

Anyway.

Retconning the Lunar War basically makes IN's plot and Reisen's backstory make no sense. Well done, with that ZUN.

If there was no actual war, Reisen is apparently the most skittish rabbit in all of the moon, since despite being in the Watatsuki's personal group, at the slightest hint of war, she scarpered Earthbound despite it being a hell world according to Moon standards and also being the place where the invaders were supposedly coming from. Oh, and she had to steal a veil to make this happen so its not like an impulse flee. There is some forethought involved.

But she apparently heard rumors that there was a war going on and even though none of her other rabbits apparently fled, she just took off running and did a pirouette off the celestial body.

This makes Reisen the second most over-reactionary character after Eirin. Who put the entire Earth in a pot over a letter that apparently was no where near to accurate. And even in the context of IN, if the Moon was losing so badly that they needed every rabbit even deserters, how would they spare the rabbitpower to send down a search party?

As usual, I'll blame SSIB unfairly because its an easy target and I hate it.

I assume Reisen ran away for other reasons. But then Eiki says:

edited 27th Dec '12 6:30:22 AM by asterism

"So, did you hear that there might be a war?"
"No problem, we have the great Watatsukis leading us so we'll come out victorious!"
"I hear they might ration our sweets too."
" =| ABANDON MOOOOOOOOON"

Ohh, try this on for size. Udonge didn't abandon her allies, the Lunarians... she abandoned her allies.. the Earthlings!

Udonge isn't a Lunar rabbit at all! Just an earthling rabbit that had some abilities that would let her masquerade as a Lunar Rabbit. When she heard of the war, she realized she wouldn't fare well in actual combat, so she slipped away, when her skills nad knowledge could have helped the Earthlings breach the Lunar capital. Instead, huge government coverup was necessary to conceal the deaths of the other astronauts.

It all fits! It's why Eirin (worried about pursuit from the moon) would allow Udonge sanctuary; Eirin knew Udonge was an Earth Rabbit, thanks ot Tewi. And Tewi's constant pranking of Udonge is vengeance for the failed mission she went on. Shikieiki calls her out on the abndoning... it all makes sense.

And now Reisen can never go back to Armstrong, her true love.

Double posting 'cause!

Wow, we got all kinds of off topic. I suppose I don't actually have much to add (though I will say that it has been/is extremely interesting reading more about the particularly convoluted afterlife in this series). In an attempt to get us back on track so I can hear more such thoughts...

A view to die for

The very definition of otherworldly beauty, a scene of cherry blossoms that shame anything on earth... the Netherworld. Not a place to be feared, but merely another stop in the great wheel of life.

Of course, it's almost impossible to talk about the Netherworld without discussing its importance in the afterlife. First of all, until very recently, the number of living beings that had ever been there could be likely counted on your hands. The Konpaku family... Yukari, Ran, and the Yama, perhaps. And, of course, the Saiygou Ayakashi.

Yet, nearly every being in existence has been a visitor, and even more will make a brief stop by there. Keeping that in mind, Youmu's job as a gardener gains that much more importance. Nearly everyone sees her handiwork, whether or not she realizes it, and I suspect she doesn't.

While the inhabitants are important, we've already discussed them a great deal. The visitors are perhaps more relevant to the Netherowrld itself. Yuyuko may be the princess of the Netherworld, but the Without the ghosts... it simply wouldn't be the Netherworld.

So, these are spirits who just had their souls judged... They dodged a trip into hell, and now they're catching their breath before spinning the wheel again. And what a fine waiting room for reincarnation it is. No wonder they don't wish to leave, with such a gracious host and a well tended garden... no hunger nor thirst. Indeed, some might well mistake it for heaven... unless perhaps it begins to get a bit too crowded.

Yuyuko predicted such a thing happening, which suggests either that more souls are being made, fewer are going to hell/heaven, or the spirits are staying longer. Now, there wasn't a pressing need, yet the Yama judged it worth using those mysterious meta-funds to expand the place well before it could become a problem. Heaven being full is a problem; the netherworld becoming too full would be disastrous... And what would happen when there's nowhere left to put the dead? Hells are already being shut down... the whole system was threatened, and no cost would be too high to fix it.

Purity may be more of a theme of the moon, but it needs to be addressed here as wekk. Only pure beings inhabit the realms. While Yukari, Ran, and now other people may visit from time to time... The Konpakus who are part phantom, Yuyuko, who's a ghost, and the Saigyou Ayakashi, which is a tree sealed in a state neither alive nor dead... these are the pure beings that inhabit the Netherworld.

The implications of the Netherworld becoming impure aren't clear... The moon, though, is still becoming corrupted, despite the best efforts of the greatest minds alive. And now, Yukari has opened up the Netherworld to the living. Corruption could very well creep in... and what happens if ghosts are begin to age and die as a result? There is a potentially enormous danger here, and Yukari shows no signs of closing that rift. Little wonder she wishes to avoid Shikieiki, really. Oh Yukari, you card, playing around with fundamental aspects of existence.

Being in the Netherworld is said to be the same as "being dead". Thus barring Hourai beings from entering it, among other implications.

Akyuu speaks of the netherworld with some familiarity. I wouldn't be surprised if she has some personal experience there as a helper on occasion between lives. Most of those memories are apparently forgotten, but "Dang it's beautiful" might have stuck with her.

Hakugyokurou... Akyuu describes it as "unbelievably huge". One might ask just why it needs to be so large if less than a dozen people even regularly visit, but it's worth noting that the residence is merely a part of the manor. The majority of the manor is likely a sort of tourism site.

Higan of course is important as well; it's where the spirits of the deceased hang out before being judged by the Yama. Apparently, overpopulation here causes the local flowers to become possessed, implying that said flowers are in fact alive. So while only the dead can go there (needing to cross the Sanzu river to do so), it seems some living things dwell within, unlike the Netherworld, where even the plant life is dead/ghostly.

Interesting that while the Spirits need a guide to cross the Sanzu River one way (at death), reincarnation seems to happen without such ferrying by shinigami. Just something that seems a little fridge-logic-ey.

The Sanzu river itself... its had its width 'calculated' by Ran, but since it's up to the shinigami to make sure it's actually the appropriate length for each passenger... I can't help but wonder if the Shinigami asked Ran to calculate it so they wouldn't need to do it themselves for each subject. Anyway, the river is also accessible from Gensokyo; one could have a picnic on its banks, were they so inclined... which means that dead spirits wait in Gensokyo to cross over the river. The line is in Gensokyo. Little wonder Ghosts seem to have always been a rather common thing in Gensokyo even before Yukari's tampering... How many of them just got bored waiitng in line to be ferried and wandered off? I must be missing something here. Hrm.

So the Netherworld is a place of literally otherworldy beauty, and of cosmic importance... yet which is unfortunately involved in the affairs of beings like Yukari... when the afterlife is at risk, what are the living to do?

Go there and party, of course.

Hmm? That is not too important, whether what they spoke of is myths or just facts. These would be approximation values you take. While it may not be exact, I wouldn't say it is wrong.

That said, even if they went to Paradise, there is no way to confirm that Paradise or Hell is that kind of distance. Do note, they use the term Paradise, not Heaven. It would also be impossible for them to confirm it, regardless of being there or not. The only thing you can rely on is the "myth" the characters are talking about.

Kind of like Patchouli when talking to Eirin. The mythical moon is a different distance from the real moon. But that is unimportant, because the distance is what Patchouli believes it is, not the actual distance.

I don't believe any of the works mentioning there being no war. The Lunarians were no way in danger, but to assert that they(the moon rabbits) did not think that there was a war is going too far. I don't believe there was any retcon to this.

@letter: Same deal, its rabbits.

@Reisen: Reisen's their best. So, even if Reisen may not be of any help, it is the perception that she could help. I mean just look at the Yorihime fight, the rabbits did nothing outside of beating some fairy maids.

This gets into what could be heard from gossips. But my point is that, Reisen does not know who died, just nameless moon rabbits that were supposedly her companions. Let me try to use gossip talk:

"Oh my god!"
"We have so many dead!"
"What will we do?!"
"Its the end of us rabbits!"
"Wait, what, how many died? Do you know any of them?"
"Lots! But I don't know them, they were our brave companions!"

It is just one part of Hell, the Hell of Blazing Fires, that is being shut down.

I don't think corruption could creep in. It isn't like ghosts don't hang out in the human realm as well as the Netherworld before that. I think ghosts cannot be impure by the fact of them being ghosts.

edited 28th Dec '12 12:53:39 AM by Starx

Patchy is a bookworm with tons of mythical tomes on various subject. Mary and Renko are two college students in a future that has mostly given up on the fantastic. For one, the latter are much more unreliable. They aren't speaking from facts they know. They are talking about old myths.

Again, mythological stuff in Touhou isn't the same as in real mythology. If someone is talking about real mythology in Touhou, expect it to either be subverted, twisted around, or flat out proven wrong.

Also, for another thing the talk about Heaven and Hell was a red herring. It ultimately didn't have much to do with anything.

@Antimatter: Good show. I see you added a bit about Higen and the Sanzu, but eh. I don't mind.

edited 28th Dec '12 6:58:43 AM by Otherarrow

A. There's no proof that Reisen is their best. She certainly is strong. After decades of being Eirin's apprentice. Eirin is more than slightly better at training rabbits than the Watatsukis. Especially Yorihime. But before that? Gonna go with probably not.

Point the second: Reisen's comrades may be nameless to us but they're not nameless to her and she could ask for them by name. That's even assuming that her rabbit telepathy is random and she couldn't just try to directly contact them.

edited 28th Dec '12 11:22:54 AM by Bocaj

In the third chapter of Ci LR, it is said that Reisen was "exceptionally talented". So, maybe she wasn't the best, but still one of the best. I don't think the Watatsukis would have taken her as a pet if she wasn't above average.

That doesn't really mean anything unless we know how big the pool of "the best" includes. If Reisen is one of the top twelve, that's impressive.

If Reisen is one in a hundred, less so.