The New Touhou Character Alternate Interpretation Compendium!

It's not about drinking alcohol, it's about attacking humans. Which is not only against their vows but directly against what Byakuren hopes to accomplish.

Aside from Murasa, who is attacking humans again?

From SoPM, I got the impression that even Nue doesn't openly attack people unless provoked.

edited 18th Oct '12 8:16:42 AM by Otherarrow

Umm, all of them? That's what happens in the games. Even Kyouko seems pretty enthusiastic about hearing some human screams. Now, they're probably not particularly serious about hurting people, but they're perfectly willing to play the standard "youkai attack humans, humans fear youkai" game. Which is what Byakuren is trying to dismantle. They haven't made the slightest effort to abandon their nature as youkai.

Isn't Kyouko also a new recruit? Change doesn't happen in a day. (Also, it's a single line that does seem otherwise off considering her characterization, but that's just me)

And outside of UFO (where they were arguably justified for some reason or another), when do the not!Murasa people go around picking fights with humans again? I think we only hear about them getting drunk.

edited 18th Oct '12 8:23:58 AM by Otherarrow

That's not true. I think Shou has.

Byakuren also attacked the protagonists. Clearly she doesn't sympathize with her own cause is what we can draw from this.

Be fair, Bocaj. She attacked them because they disagreed with her ideals.

She's terrible at diplomacy is what we can draw from this. Also I think she was under the impression that they were going to seal her away again.

By contrast, her followers attacked you despite them kind of assuming that you were on their side. Most of them seemed to think you were gathering the fragments to help them free Byakuren. Probably because there's not much other reason to gather them.

I was under the impression that most of the UFO bosses get pounced on by Reimu.

Of course, that gets into the classic problem of "if we don't have an excuse to have fights, we have no game".

In fairness, I do recall that the heroes weren't exactly trying their best to be friendly (I know that is not the best word, I just can't think of the word I would otherwise use) and they don't even go along with their presumptions.

Well, it's not like they're angry with you or loyally trying to stop you from interfering with their plans. They just cheerfully go along with the "attack the humans" game when the idea is brought up. There were plenty of other ways to make fighting necessary without showing them enjoying it so much.

edited 18th Oct '12 9:01:47 AM by Clarste

Of course, that assumes ZUN is a good enough writer to think of such things. I kid I kid

But seriously though, most of the fights in UFO are initiated by the heroines, or have the boss react to something the heroine is doing (such as looting the place or gathering the things with no idea what they are and refusing to hand them over) I don't see the bosses so much as "cheerfully going along with things" as much as trying to deal with an aggressor.

edited 18th Oct '12 9:37:36 AM by Otherarrow

See, I think they're basically trying to build an identity as Buddhists before they're willing to abandon their identity as youkai. I mean, Shou shows that it's possible... But they've gotta do it in the right order, because otherwise they're just going to vanish; There's a transition period where they need to be seen by others as (And grow their own identity as) "Buddhist youkai". Then when the "youkai" is taken out, they can continue on as "Buddhists", instead of becoming "".

That's what I think Byakuren's plan is, anyway.

RE: Nue being lonely. You know, given her pride in being unknown, I could see this being going two ways. -Either- she's totally cool with being an outcast (No one gets close to her, so no one knows her, so she keeps her youkai pride. -Or- she is conflicted, and perhaps letting her unknown-ness drop a bit to try and get some friends, something she presumably had gone without for a long time, only to become rather envious when she saw all these friendships.

edited 18th Oct '12 9:40:55 AM by Antimatter625

I do think that her "true form", prevously a well kept secret, is now more or less common knowledge. Akyuu got her sketch ninjas on it and all.

Perhaps she feels comfortable enough that she doesn't feel she needs to hide? maybe she wants to get closer to folks and have them like her for her?

I don't think that's how it works. They're supposed to become nothing. Byakuren herself says that "Buddhism is a philosophy that breaks you down" and the fact that youkai are particularly vulnerable to this is used as a selling point.

I don't think that's what will happen to Youkai when they become buddhists. Byakuren has given exmaples of Youkai buddhists and hermits.

Also, when you reach enlightment, I am unsure if you are supposed to become nothing as much as become something else.

Basically enlightenment is when you go to Nirvana, that is something superior to common life or the afterlife. but in my opinion I think Byakuren's objective is to help Youkai climb the karma ladder, and to reach a state where they are no longer in peril even if the Hakurei barrier suddenly disappear.

edited 18th Oct '12 11:11:24 PM by asellus111

Reaching Nirvana also means freedom from the basic drives that make an individual, well... individual. No desires because those are the root of all suffering. No happiness because 'happiness' as known in mortal life is yet another illusion. The list goes on.

If Byakuren really wants to get Youkai 'stuck' on a better part of the karmic ladder then she is a horrible Buddhist indeed because she's preventing them from reaching the top where they should be (and hence leaving mortal life altogether). A good person, arguably. A good Buddhist, no.

edited 18th Oct '12 11:14:56 PM by Recon5

Yeah but remember that Youkai have very low chances,due to the low karma, to reach enlightenment in the first place, but Buddhism can help a Youkai to become a Kami as mentioned by Byakuren, She desires them to climb the karma ladder so even if they die and are reborn they come back as something better.

edited 18th Oct '12 11:30:48 PM by asellus111

That's not true. Buddhism does not rule this out. It rules out desire, not happiness, don't mistake the two.

This is the general principle, but the specific method really depends on the school of philosophy a particular believer subscribe to. For instance, the Pure Land school believes you only needs to recite Amidha's name every day, so you can be reborn in his pure land world next time, where you have a much better chance of reaching Nirvana. In other words, achieving Nirvana is often considered hard enough that most cannot possibly do it in this life or even this world.

Last time, I hope:

So, then who has Kasen fought off in the past, if they weren't Kishin or Reapers?

I'm not trying to argue a point at this point, I just don't quite understand.

edited 19th Oct '12 12:28:01 AM by Enlong

Ok... see, that's kinda more in line with what my thinking about the Cosmology in Touhou is. Heaven's basically a springboard for people to potentially achieve Nirvana from.

And Youkai are probably proving slow to change, because although they have fewer attachments and desires, those desires are really central to their being. While Byakuren hopes that this could basically let them take a shortcut to nirvana... well, how likely do you think it is that, say, Parsee could get rid herself of jealousy? If she could, "Bam! Nirvana", says Byakuren.

It's just a really big "IF".

Wait, Nue isn't Buddhism.

So why in the world does Nue have a trident? Is she just going for the impish devil sort of motif? Is it supposed to be somehow symbolic of the form legendarily attributed to her?

Also, her wing-tentacles are apparently quite fluid and capable of a fair range of movement. If she shows up in 13.5 (unlikely, but eh), I hope we see them in action.

Yeah, her wing/tentacle/things are said by Akyuu to be a bit disturbing, as they move oddly and one can't really tell what they're supposed to be used for.

I personally think their main use is to be a bit disturbing.

In which case, mission accomplished.