Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

One last thought before I go to sleep.

The rape was exploitative and the whole scene was a bad idea.

However, I think the same about Ramsay's repeated rape of Jeyne Poole in the books.

I'm not disputing that the rape scene was a bad idea. I'm disputing that it takes away Sansa's agency and that it is ignoring her character development.

I believe Sansa's story has parallels with Dany. Both were raped and like Dany I expect Sansa to get more agency. Unlike Dany she will probably murder her spouse instead of falling in love.

Actually Daenerys did murder Drogo.

I don't think they're setting Ramsay up to die by Sansa's hand.

edited 17th May '15 9:50:29 PM by MadSkillz

Is Yara Greyjoy set to return this season, or did she completely wash her hands of Theon after last season's botched rescue attempt?

I think 'euthanized' is a better term for it. I doubt Drogo would've objected.

It's funny, because in the books, neither one was raped.

...wait, that's not funny at all.

Dany was raped in the books. There's a passage that talks about how she was exhausted because Drogo kept raping her every night.

Daenerys was raped by Drogo.

On the other hand, Cersei wasn't raped by Jaime in the books.

edited 17th May '15 10:20:14 PM by MadSkillz

Okay, so I was remembering the wedding scene, which wasn't rape in the book, but was in the show.

It wasn't as blatant as in the show, but it was still a rape. Dany was a thriteen-year-old girl who was basically sold to Drogo. I suspect they made it clearer in the show because Emilia Clarke is an adult, and it would be harder to demonstrate the truly horrific nature of the situation if it appeared an adult woman was consenting to the situation.

Regarding Sansa, I could buy the 'she's keeping her agency' argument if she appeared to do anything this season other than roll her eyes, snark, or sit at the dinner table glaring, but so far she's only been a passive recipient of people telling her that they'll help her. Even beyond the stupid circumstances that put her in this situation (and they were undeniably stupid, let's not argue that), she could have made a bare minimum effort to reach out to others for help overthrowing the Boltons. If you believe she couldn't, then that's just an indicator she's not an active agent, and instead is a victim again.

Basically,the writers a have made no effort to portray Sansa as an agent, even when touting her as a player when intending to victimize her. Even if they make her some BAMF who single-handedly destroys House Bolton, it's too little too late. They never bothered to portray her develpoment the first three seasons, they're not bothering now, and the result is an inexcusably cheap shock scene and a poorly written, developed, and thought out plot line.

God, this show.

So, I haven't been watching the episodes of this show for the last couple of weeks, but I heard what happened tonight.

Obviously I'm very upset because Sansa Stark's storyline was drastically changed from the novels to the tv show.

I'm fucking sick of this show. I'm sick of female characters being treated like shit by Weiss and Benioff, who don't care for the novels' canon and themes and only want to use sexualised violence for shock value. Sansa Stark doesn't deserve that. Ros didn't. Cersei didn't either.

Fuck this piece of shit show. I'm done for good.

and My feelings too.

I really wanted to love this show for the many things it's done right. But the things that go wrong are so wrong on so many levels, and so vile and repulsive in what they do to both the story and character arcs, and to the viewers' sense of human decency.

So I haven't seen this week's episode yet.

Based on the reactions I've been seeing, I'm not sure if I want to.

edited 17th May '15 11:24:10 PM by Northwind

Considering the uproar after Jamie-Cersei last season, I'm surprised ANYONE allowed this to happen...

They clearly don't know how to write anymore.

EVERYONE before now has known Ramsay is a monster! EVERYONE! I'm sure its been brought up dozens of times! Even in the Telltale game, EVERYONE knows Ramsay is a monster!

They don't know what the fuck they're doing anymore.

edited 17th May '15 11:29:19 PM by InkDagger

Oh god. They actually went through with it, didn't they?

...At least a dog wasn't involved in this one???

Fuck Weiss and Benioff, the bastards.

You know, I was fine with the Sansa going to Winterfell plot as long as they had changed it to 'not' include the worst Jeyne Poole stuff. This is just shock value for the sake of shock value, and it's rather sickeningly exploitative to boot.

Why no one put the kibosh on this is a goddamn mystery for the ages.

The only part of the episode I didn't like was the very end for obvious reasons but I'm not going to say it ruined the show for me.

What happened to Jeyne Poole was leagues worse but I think it raises the stakes a lot higher if something similar happens to a character we know and love. Jeynes whole story was unending shock value, of course Sansas marriage is played for shock value. But for those who remain in the show, they're a lot more invested in the outcome.

Other than the very end the rest of the episode was enjoyable but Dorne is only salvaged for me by Jaime, Bronn, Doran, and Areo. Trystayne seems like a good fellow

You're entitled to your opinion but if your only contribution is to be outraged you should do something else that's constructive

edited 17th May '15 11:41:16 PM by Mr.Didact

The problem is when it completely sacrifices the development of the character we 'know and love' just to 'raise the stakes'. Honestly, I'm not a fan of the Jeyne storyline (though I do love Theon's arc, which makes my feelings very mixed), because of just how exploitative it was, but at least Jeyne was crafted as a victim. Not so much with Sansa. She's supposed to be developing and reclaiming her agency (after seasons of victim-hood).

edited 17th May '15 11:45:14 PM by RandomaNama

The issue is... Sansa already hit this beat last Season and the seasons before that. Why the fuck is she getting beaten down again for character development and character establishment.

Sansa had her 'I'm a baddass player in the Game of Thrones' at the end of last season. But, this season, she isn't a player. She still isn't doing anything on her own. And, no, an eyeroll at dinner and cowing the non-character of Roose's new wife does not count.

Ramsay is already established as fucked up in nearly everyway and having really wrong sexual habbits. This has been established for 4 seasons for now.

What was the point of this? Honestly, with the scene with Myranda in the bath, I was REALLY expecting Sansa to almost be raped by Ramsay and then she cows him near perfectly. Sex still happens but it happens on her terms.

Just... Goddamn it.

You're acting as if character development is a straight line. A characters personality can move in a general direction but with occasional relapses. This is true of... many characters in the show and book actually, Dany high among them. The general trend for Sansa was to achieve more agency. But she experienced a major relapse with her wedding night. She's hit rock bottom but it'll force her to take off the kid gloves, we see shades of this in the next episode preview. This happened to Dany too, multiple times actually. Dany seems to hit rock bottom before experiencing an epiphany and taking charge.

As for Ramsays behavior well we got three seasons of Joffrey being a terrible shit, it's not that much different except a terrible thing has happened to Sansa and not minor character. Ramsay being cowed by Sansa would've been nice but we'd get the same complaints of character assassination. The thing is Sansas rape is supposed to evoke powerful feelings just like every other terrible thing that's happened to good people in this story. Terrible things have happened to people we don't care about in the story this season, but now the audience is invested. Obviously it worked. Although I think at this point Jorah and Sansa are the two unluckiest characters in the story, I really hope their fortunes turn.

As an aside I was legitimately awestruck by the audacity of Littlefingers plan. No matter what you think that's one hell of a gambit

edited 18th May '15 12:01:45 AM by Mr.Didact

That's what I was hoping would happen too! I was hoping that Sansa would turn Ramsay's rape attempt around as a way to seduce him and get him to think she was submissive and compliant with the sex they were to have. Part of me still hopes/wishes they reveal that this is a thing that happens (did the episode end with Ramsay just starting Because dammit, if they want me to think Sansa is a player rather than a victim or pawn now, I ain't seeing it.

Those other characters never got big damn "I'm a player now" moments like Sansa did in Season 4. Following THAT up with THIS shit is a beyond colossal letdown. We felt we already saw Sansa "take off the kid gloves" and were ready to see her act as an agent in her new situation. We were NOT ready for THIS.

edited 18th May '15 12:01:57 AM by ANewMan

I recognize that. Character development is never a straight line. But, we already saw her hit rock bottom, we saw her have her epiphany and its all framed as 'She's a player now'. But... since then she hasn't done anything to BE a player. And she's hit rock bottom again.

There wasn't a point to it. Character development doesn't have to be straight forward, but it needs to have a purpose in what directions its going.

And, considering the series' trend of making rape scenes when it doesn't need to (Jamie-Cersei last season), it REALLY rubs the wrong way.

Littlefinger's plan still makes no sense, by the by. So he's directly relying on Cersei's co-operation so he can get Winterfell after letting Stannis and the Boltons duke it out? Cersei is the one person who'll absolutely, unrelentingly want Littlefinger's head if she suspects he had a hand in Joffrey's murder. She's not at all suspicious that Baelish is harbouring Sansa after she mysteriously disappeared from King's Landing? Did the writers just forget that Sansa is a fugitive wanted for regicide?

edited 18th May '15 12:20:20 AM by DrDougsh