Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

Honestly, yes, that girl was a prostitute who literally makes her living from "male attention". So, she obviously wasn't happy that a more popular "co-worker" was stealing her clients and, by extention, her coins.

She didn't require "male attention" due her inherently fragile feminine nature or something. She required it in order to make a living/please her owners.

And Tyrion didn't have sex with her not because he's a "nice guy" but due to the memory of Shae still being fresh with him. Hell, that girl even looked like her a little bit.^note :a rather unsubtle move by the showrunners

edited 29th Apr '15 4:30:24 PM by LogoP

@hodor Tyrion was whitewashed. His whole relationship with Shae was whitewashing Tyrion. They fall in love, she tries to get him to leave several times, he angsts because she won't leave by herself, and then she betrays him because she's vengeful, and then he kills her in self defense and he cries and apologizes and it's poor Tyrion was betrayed by the bad whore. While Bronn who actively refused to help him gets a bro shake.

The show has Sansa enjoying Tyrion's company and even was told by Marge that he was handsome and she should give him a chance.

Tyrion is largely and often shown in a positive light and the show refuses to have him in the wrong.

@Logo She's not a prostitute. She's a sex slave. They don't earn money for themselves but for their masters.

It also implies a coverup of flaws that actually exist rather then change in how a character is portrayed. The book and show versions of Tyrion are basically two different interpretations of a character. Doesn't mean that they're both equally well written or that the fit into the narrative in the same way, but it is what it is.

To put it another way, Japan omitting or minimizing its history of imperialism is whitewashing, because it's something that actually happened. Tyrion not having a bard murdered to keep his affair with Shae a secret isn't, because the issue didn't even happen in the first place.

edited 29th Apr '15 4:35:24 PM by Northwind

I kinda get what you mean but it really depends on how you see it.

Like for instance, I see ASOIAF as the real story so when I see changes I relate it to the books/the real story. Maybe it's erroneous of me to do so but since the show will spoil the books it makes it really hard for me to see them as two completely separate entities.

For the visual people, I see it like this:

ASOIAF

l

Game of Thrones

Other people see it like this:

ASOIAF

edited 29th Apr '15 4:40:58 PM by MadSkillz

Not much of a difference, in this case. If she doesn't bring coin to her masters, they are going to sell her off. Or worse.

Obtaining money for them secures her a decent living & a roof above her friend.

No slave wants to be seen as useless or a "bad purchase".

@Mad Skillz- A couple of thoughts:

I'm really not sure how to express this, but I do think it's slightly ambiguous where Clea (the character) falls in the prostitute versus slave Venn Diagram. It was definitely a mixed bag in Ancient Greece and Rome (which Volantis is based on). My guess would be that she was sold into slavery at some point and right now, the money she makes goes partly to her owner/the brothel owner but partly to herself (Roman slaves earned a meagre salary of sorts). She could be bought/freed by someone wealthy. Hence the jealousy toward the Danaerys prostitute.

I think the whole Tyrion/Shae relationship on the show is a mixed bag. As Martin has suggested in some of his comments, it's not a bad idea to flesh out Shae's character and her relationship with Tyrion (I don't think the gold-digging bimbo of the books would work on screen), but it creates problems later on because of what is inevitably going to happen. As a result, it's not totally clear why Shae betrays Tyrion (it seems to come down to dislike of being cast aside and I can't say her wish for him to leave with her as a bad idea). I don't think the intent was to present Tyrion as acting as self-defense, but it does kind of come off that way on the show.

I have no problem with Margaery praising Tyrion's looks- that "speech" is taken from how Garlan praises Tyrion to Sansa, with the addition of the fact that unlike in the books, Tyrion is good looking- it's kind of a lampshade hanging of the change, especially in terms of Tyrion's less horrific scarring.

That's not erroneous, it's just a difference in interpretation. I see the show and the book as being two narratives that share the same setting and characters,but are different universes due to being guided by different people creatively. You see the books as the definitive version of the story and would prefer to see something as close to what you read in the books as possible realized on screen.

Neither is a 'wrong' view, they're just different ways of looking at the concept of adaptation. Some people don't mind an adaptation taking a broad strokes approach (which for better or worse is what Game of Thrones has become), others do. It's going to come down to personal taste more then anything else.

GRRM has said TV Shae is a better character than his Shae and he's not wrong.

But Shae's ending didn't really feel organic to the show's story. It felt a bit tacked on especially when she tried selling out Sansa.

I wish they made it apparent that Tywin and Cersei were forcing her hand rather than making it seem like this is what she wanted.

Now I have to deal with people telling me that Shae deserved what she got coming from Tyrion. Which kinda adds to Byakugan's point that in the show, Tyrion can do no wrong.

GOT is on a weird middle ground. I'm annoyed by how close and how far it's going from the books. I wish it would either stay closer to the books or stray even farther and do the story in even broader strokes and not spoil the book's ending.

edited 29th Apr '15 5:12:23 PM by MadSkillz

I agree there- if I were the writer, I'd have made it a lot clearer that Shae was forced and make have it much more clearly be murder on Tyrion's part.

As it is though, I think it was a combination of being forced and feeling some resentment toward Tyrion and possibly Sansa- although, my fanon is that even if Shae didn't want to accuse Sansa, Tywin and Cersei would definitely have demanded it.

edited 29th Apr '15 5:21:19 PM by Hodor2

Shae's ending sucked. It gave zero closure.

To this day, I still don't get why the first thing she did when she saw him was grab a knife and lunge at him. Or didn't even try to talk to him during the fight.

Most charitably, it was because she figured he had murder in mind. Less charitably, it was to add an element of self defense on Tyrion's part.

If it were me, I'd have Shae protesting that she was forced/did it to save Tyrion while he killed her.

Edit- Re Northwind's comment on whitewashing, that is well expressed. One thing that it gets at, is that while I think the term works really well when one is talking about recording history/historical fiction, I don't think it makes sense as a criticism of an adaptation, because adaptation inherently means changes and a fictional work shouldn't be treated like gospel.

I mean one can like or dislike a change and look at why it is or is not good for the character/work, but I just think using the term whitewashing is off base.

edited 29th Apr '15 5:33:21 PM by Hodor2

I wish you were the executive producer instead of D&D.

See that would've been better than what we had.

Also, a really talented actor can compensate for some writing weaknesses. I don't know if it was the language barrier—she was great in Die Fremde—but Shae's actress was horrid. Perhaps someone like Lyndsey Marshal (Cleopatra on Rome) or Rebecca Hall could've made the character stronger.

If the show wanted to hit all its endpoints with Tyrion, I'd have written in more implication Shae was coerced (perhaps told Sansa wouldn't be implicated and/or Tyrion just exiled/sent to the Wall if Shae agreed. Let's also say a better actress made Shae seem more genuinely affectionate toward Sansa and in love—but heartbroken—with Tyrion).

She tries to explain to Tyrion in Tywin's room, but he thinks she's lying or just doesn't care. As Tyrion leaves for the boat, he's replaying what she said, and asks Varys point-blank. Varys' answer (or lack of) proves her right. Tyrion escapes, knowing he murdered someone who had loved him—a way to work in some of the Tysha themes.

edited 29th Apr '15 7:13:00 PM by Phoenixflame

So I started to watch the series.

I haven't read the books, but don't mind me; I know several of the spoilers^note Ned dies, along with pretty much every single man of Stark with exception of Rickon, Bran, Jon Snow, plus some women like Catelyn. Theon gets castrated, Oberyn dies horrifically in the hands of the Mountain who apparently gets turned into a zombie(?), Tywin and Kevan dies (the latter in the book, at least), Jaime gets his hand cut off and Joffrey gets poisoned, yadda yadda yadda, and whatever I don't know, I'm incapable of being bothered by spoilers unless that's the whole point of it like The Usual Suspects, so don't mind me.

Anyhow! Watched up to episode 3 now.

I got a whole lot to say about this series, but to sum up, as much as Joffrey is a total twat, his actor is pretty darn good. Also, Tyrion's voice; holy crap, his voice, along with his face, more than makes up for the rest of his condition.

By the way, Jon telling Robb that "Starks are hard to kill" was the funniest thing I've heard so far. XD

Shae's actress's ability wasn't the problem the problem was the writing/directing of the show. Sibel (the actress) stated that she was uncomfortable with how her arc ended because it felt out of character. Beginning of the season "I love that girl, I would die for her" end of the season "she did it and I heard her"

Also, I totally agree with Logo, based entirely on my personal experiences and what I've seen, any couple with dramatic ass tension especially around betrayal, could not unexpectedly encounter each other and not say a word. That was a deliberate change from the book text when Shae expected Tyrion was there to rescue her because the other Lanns put her up to what she said in the trial. D&D deliberately had the characters say nothing until Tyrion kills her and apologizes while they both have tears in their eyes.

"That was a deliberate change from the book text when Shae expected Tyrion was there to rescue her because the other Lanns put her up to what she said in the trial. "

This part I disagree with. I think Shae sold Tyrion out in the books because there was an advantage in it/no advantage in not selling him out (what I mean is that it was a decision between being rewarded for perjury and being harmed if she didn't testify; not a "testify or die" situation) and my inclination is to think that she didn't expect him to rescue her and was basically making a Lame Excuse when Tyrion barged in.

Book!Shae yeah, she def played along. Show!Shae no.

But the end of Show!Shae was ooc for being Book!Shae.

There was some article about how D&D made show!Shae a different person. found it

yeah grrm said that the show character became a different person.

edited 30th Apr '15 10:02:03 AM by byakugan0889

Oh, I thought you were talking about book Shae when saying the character was forced to testify/thought Tyrion was going to rescue her.

If they wanted to portray Shae as an Opportunistic Bitch from the start, they shouldn't have given her that heartfelt "Im yours and you're mine" speech.

It just doesn't make sense to have the woman who uttered those words^note :at a moment when Tyrion had nothing to offer her, no less behave in such a way not much latter.

edited 30th Apr '15 10:17:01 AM by LogoP

Looking at the GOT Wiki episode pages I noticed something: The first two episodes of Season 5 adapt material from A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows AND A Dance with Dragons. That mean for book readers, they are seeing material they may have first read four years ago placed alongside material they may have first read fifteen years ago. That must be a bit jarring.

edited 30th Apr '15 5:00:29 PM by djbj

Oh, I actually love how it's gone more off the reservation. I loved the Sansa chapters in AFFC, but onscreen would our climax be Sansa getting Robin to eat his porridge? I guess Littlefinger decided to chuck her out of the nest and figure she'd learn to fly. I really hope D&D don't drop the ball, as I (potentially) really like this streamlining of several plots.

So, I've been wondering.....

What happened to the Blackfish after the Red Wedding in the book?

He's been MIA in the show since then, but I don't really recall his book fate.

I think he holes up in a stronghold in the Riverlands with some Tully supporters. Jaime has to try and convince him to surrender in AFFC.

.....

Wow, that sounds like a disaster.

Of all the people to send after him, it's Jamie. I mean, he likely wouldn't have trusted anyone who came for him, but that's the absolute worst choice for who to send.