Doctor Who

Yeah, these are apparently people who've heard of the Doctor, and Unit, and over whom those credentials would hold some sway. I do believe this may be the first time he's flashed it to people who actually have some idea of who he is.

I'm still waiting for the time he'll flash it to someone where it apparently identifies him as "God" or "archangel" or something.

Because I like and appreciate his perspective.

...And, more than that, the Under the Lake Review was actually really simple and concise so I don't even know what you're talking about.

Heaven forbid a forum about narrative devices actually attempt to engage in literary criticism.

That would just be awful.

edited 4th Oct '15 12:26:44 PM by unnoun

Exactly. To anyone who thought the review was rambling, what did you want him to do, just come out and say, '"Under the Lake" was an enjoyable episode,' and let that be that? It's actually the kind of review I might do if I spent a good amount of time on it, so I don't really see the problem with it.

The Psychic Paper doesn't show exactly what the bearer is thinking, it shows the viewer whatever they need to see to give the bearer what the bearer wants.

This is the truest lie it's ever done though. UNIT is probably never taking the Doctor off their roster.

As for The Black Dude Dies First, I think the original commanding officer was the only black person in the cast.

I believe there are multiple POC characters, but only one was black.

If you have an all-black cast, one of the black characters dying isn't quite an example.

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Watched it on iplayer so I'm just thread-jumping.

Not sure about the plot really. The coordinates thing was just absurd.

Cass is cool. She's a nice character and representation is always good.

Doesn't BBC generally do race-blind casting for bit characters? They probably didn't give it much thought even if they should have.

I mean, Moffat had something to say about race-blind casting.

"I thought when I first took it over — oh, what the hell, we’ll just audition people of all races for every part, and it will average out. I don’t know why an old Lefty like me had such faith in the free market; it did not work out. It does not work out. You’ve got actually decide that’s what you’re going to do. Lenny Henry has been very interesting on that subject. A few years ago I thought: Oh, quotas, what a ridiculous idea. Then I realized, quotas are a perfectly sensible idea! There’s nothing wrong with them! Now we’re actively trying to get that."

A few years ago the BBC instituted a requirement that panel shows had to have at least one woman on every episode, because it turns out that when you grab a random handful of working comedians, you usually don't come up with a woman in the mix.

The only other chair on Skaro.

so should they have made the base leader white? Or not killed off the base leader? If the base leader isn't killed off who is? The one Indian guy? The one middle eastern guy? The deaf women? The one other women (turning us into a Smurfett situation with the base crew)? The white guy? Hell I'd be for the white guy, but it means your making one of the minority/women characters the designated asshole of the group, which has its own set of nasty implications.

I'd get the being something specific about it being the black guy who died if the show was American, but it's British.

There are 5 heroic characters on the base, I really don't think they should have made one of them a white man just so they could kill a heroic character without killing off a minority/women.

edited 4th Oct '15 12:54:37 PM by Silasw

They could have just not picked a black guy for the part if they knew his only purpose was getting killed.

Well that's not his only purpose, you'll notice that he's actually still an active part of the episode even after he's dead.

But even ignoring that, that means we've got a white guy as the base leader, I'm tired of white guys always being the leader, I'm tired of it always being white guys who heroically sacrifice themselves for others, why can't we have the white guy be a total asshole for once?

The idea that we should have a less diverse cast just so that a minority character isn't killed first seems absurd to me.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:02:54 PM by Silasw

You mean the country that took slaves from Africa in the first place?

Or the country that colonized South Africa and created the conditions which lead to apartheid?

I mean. If you look at the colonialism theory in this article, possibly even one of the countries that created AIDS? In the forced labor camps in Africa.

Britain is by no means immune to issues involving race.

There is plenty of British media where the Black dude dies first.

Having more black characters would alleviate the issue by a lot.

...And, like.

I think that it's unfortunate that the only black character in the cast is the first one who died.

But I also don't think it's that big a deal? I think that it was nice that he was the commander beforehand, and it's nice that a mute and deaf lady is the commander now.

It's part of an unfortunate trend, but the problem is the trend. Not individual instances.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:16:09 PM by unnoun

I mean, it's not like the actor was cheated out of work. He still got to be in the rest of the episode (and presumably the next episode as well) as a ghost.

And every one on the base was a minority of some kind, except the Asshole Victim white guy. And you need to establish he's a corporate weasel before you kill him off so he can't go first.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:03:51 PM by PurpleDalek

Again, I'm not really criticizing it personally.

I think it's more or less justifiable. I'm not personally going to condemn the story because of it.

But it's still a thing, and it's still there, and it's still, however benign or well-intentioned it may be, part of the larger trend.

And I object to denying that.

Black people are far from the only ethnic group that the British have screwed over, they're far from the only oppressed minority in need of representation over here.

That depends on what trend we're talking about, because I thought the problem was minority characters being added to a show specifically so that there was token representation, but the minority character was then killed off quickly so as to avoid making the white male target audience squeamish.

It's not part of that trend, and that's the trend I find problematic. Not a trend of "racially diverse cast of characters has one of the minorities present killed of, because the only heroic characters are minorities/women", that'd be a pretty nice trend to be honest, though personally I don't feel the need for us to even have the token white guy asshole, but I can see why he was included.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:11:14 PM by Silasw

I'm well aware. Believe me.

That doesn't mean that instances of trends involving depiction of black people in media aren't instances of those trends when the British do it.

I agree that it's a form of progress. It's certainly an improvement.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:14:30 PM by unnoun

I would've been less bothered if the previous story hadn't also opened with a black guy dying.

...Huh.

Now that you mention it.

I hadn't really put the two together.

See now that's a fair point. The choice to go for opening kills is a bit awkwad.

Still I'd say that someone at the BBC has made a concious decision to get more minorities into episodes this season, the heroic guy who tried to help Davros was black, the tech lady at UNIT was black, part of increased representation is going to be increased representation in the body count.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:15:43 PM by Silasw

Again, I'm not going to criticize or lambaste the episode too much.

I'm ultimately just glad for the increased representation.

That I think this is an instance doesn't mean I think it's a particularly egregious instance.

And ultimately, it's an instance that, as you point out, is far more representative of the increase in diversity overall.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:20:15 PM by unnoun

Going over the first episode I think that someone been very deliberate with the casting. We start with two minority guys, one of whom tries to help Davros, then when we swing to the modern day the school guy who tell Clara UNIT called, minority, we get to UNIT and we've got Kate, a black women on tech and a minority guy at the computer when Missy texts. Then we meet Missy, it's hard to tell the ethnicities of the UNIT guys in the background but they seem to be a mixed bunch from what I can tell. Hell even when we roll back to 1138 we've got a good racial mix in the background.

It's not until Daleks are the background characters that we actually end up with the background characters for the episode being white (assuming that Daleks count as white). The only characters that could have been minorities that weren't are either pre existing, or ones where it would be very hard to explain, as they're a medieval English lord, and the personal henchman of the space Nazis.

And hey, we actually have a very mixed set of colours amongst the Dalek's if you notice.

This is all very interesting, I hadn't noticed at all because it was so natural, but I think someone is very deliberately making sure when we get new characters this season we're getting maximum diversity, and I very much approve.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:40:35 PM by Silasw

It would be an interesting conversation

"Yes, you are perfect for the part, you display exactly the traits we see in the character, but we can't offer you the part, because you are black, and we don't want the black man to die first".

I think I've seen that actor in other things, and I can't imagine him in one of the other roles. We don't know who else went up for a part.

Its also worth remembering that Britain is 85% white/British, 5% White other. Only 1 in 10 are non-white. Until the 50's non-whites were a rarity. So really we only have 3 generations at most, and much of the increase has come in the last couple of decade.

Immigrants, of what ever background and what ever race tend to congregate in self imposed ghettoes: obviously the British retirees in Cyprus live a better life than Pakistanis in Sparkhill due to the wealth they arrived with, but all immigrants congregate with others of similar cultures, and it is a few generations before there is widespread breakout.

Perhaps there just isn't the proportionate numbers of non-white actors yet filtered into the system- probably coupled with establishment resistance, even if it isn't meant, combined with cultural resistance from Grandparents: acting is seen as a pretty unacceptable job with many conservative people (of what ever background); its all "gay people taking drugs"! Actress used to be a euphemism for prostitute!

As to the episode- I enjoyed it. Remember it is paced for two episodes. I think that Doctor Who works better as a 2 parter- gives more time for a proper foundation, and introducing elements bit by bit, and you don't get the rushed 'The Doctor does something clever' to fit it into the last 5 minutes. This had time to build the tension. To evolve the plot - the Ghosts didn't try and do anything to the pair of them UNTIL they had looked at the writing. A short episode would have cut that general 'not reacting'.

They are using the time to build it up, to establish it, to get all the Chekovs in there.