Avatar: The Last Airbender

People really underestimate how murderous and clever Ozai really is. As pointed out in-universe, even if she went back to find a way to get her children Ozai would still be suspicious and have no hesitation to kill her on the spot if he connected the dots that his former wife had somehow gotten a new identity.

"It's really hard" isn't a great excuse for giving up, especially when you are a person who has voluntarily committed regicide over the same goal.

You mean the guy who sent assassins after his wife's former boyfriend. A lot of people are very much downplaying Ozai's ambition. The fact is getting anything beyond Ozai's reach is hard, because he's dangerously Genre Savvy and when something is off he will do what he can to snuff it out.

There is literally nothing Ursa could have done to Ozai even if she didn't have her memories erased. I get why doing that would hurt people's opinions of her over a symbolic issue, but when people start talking as if she had any real power to improve the situation that's where I tune out.

The stuff with Zuko most likely would have happened whether she was around or not, or remembered or not.

Honestly, in situations like that, the insinuation that everyone involved should continue to be miserable just comes off because "it's the thing to do" and not for any actual reason.

What I don't get is how Ozai and Ursa managed to convince everyone that Azulon had made Ozai his heir on his deathbed, and why Iroh didn't contest the claim.

I figure Iroh stopped giving a crap for a while after his son was killed.

Iroh probably didn't really care about the throne, and wanted to retire from his military career after the death of his son.

Too bad, if he was the Fire Lord he'd simply surrender the moment he hits the throne.

There's no real reason to think that. He was still totally trying to help the Fire Nation win the war until like Mid-season 2.

Maybe you could say that was more for Zuko than anything, but Iroh didn't stop the siege of Ba Sing Se because he believed what they were doing was wrong, he did it because losing his son broke him and he and his men were already tired from from an almost two year long campaign.

Yeah, just before Lu Ten died Iroh was joking about how they might burn the whole city to the ground. He had no plans to stop fighting the war.

Iroh was disgraced after his legendary failure at Ba Sing Sei if memory serves me. It was really the perfect moment for Ozai to seize the throne uncontested. Iroh is out of town, emotionally compromised, his heir is dead and his colossal military failure is in recent memory.

People arguing that Ursa should have done something to Ozai are forgetting that Ozai gave her the ultimatum of "Kill my father and leave immediately or I kill our son, and if you try anything ever again I'll kill both our children to spite you." What is it exactly that they expected her to die? Try to kill Ozai who is already expecting her to kill him? Even if that worked Azulon had already ordered Zuko's death and would have Ursa killed for killing his son. Try to sneak back in latter? Ozai has the resources of the fire lord and made it clear he will kill their children if she doesn't stay in exile.

I really don't get what some people think she should have done.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ComicBook/AvatarTheLastAirbenderNorthAndSouth

Also no one talks about North and South, because it really is a good look at the themes of progress and traditions. It also sheds some more focus into the colonization mindset. It shows that the Fire Nation isn't the only one capable of this thinking, but as shown here the Northern tribe can have the same sort of views towards their supposed sister tribe.

Yeah, I thought North and South was pretty good. I think they did a good job making the conflict fairly complex and there were valid concerns on both sides. I've honestly enjoyed the comics pretty well so far. Regarding the Ursa thing, I don't think her characterization in the comics is that bad really. She is a flawed person who made some mistakes, but she is aware of that and I can understand why she made those decisions. I'm just a little annoyed that she and Azula haven't really interacted with each other since Ursa got her memory back.

They really need to show what Kiy, Zuko's younger half sister, is doing these days. For some reason, I can imagine she and Zuko even in their old age are still in contact with one another. I also like to think that even though she is the sister of the former Firelord that she actually lives a relatively normal life, and nonchalantly treats the fact that Zuko is her brother as an interesting fact.

I think it kind of goes without saying that Zuko would stay in contact with her. He really cares about his family (except Ozai) and the two get along really well. I think you're idea that she would just live a relatively normal life makes a lot of sense. Maybe she could have a cameo in the Korra comics.

Yeah, maybe a cameo or be a small supporting character who just randomly says she is the younger sister of the former Firelord. I like to think that Kiyi was the aunt that bopped in once in a while, and Izumi remembers with great fondness.I also would love to think that Kiyi becomes a trained firebender and is a Badass Grandma who still lives the regular life being a teacher to young firebenders.

Obviously, Ursa couldn't have taken Ozai in a fight or something, but she could have done more to help Zuko and Azula and/or get them away from him. Or reached out to Iroh for aid. The show implies that Ozai is keeping her prisoner somewhere or she's dead or something that physically stopped her from aiding her children.

It's a really underwhelming reveal that she just left because she was afraid of Ozai, and Ozai was content with her just leaving because he knew she'd be afraid of him. Both characters' choices rely on one specific characterization trait: that Ursa is a callow person, so afraid of what Ozai may do to her son that she is entirely content leaving her son in his custody so that he can do it to him.

This just doesn't sit right as a characterization trait for the woman who assassinated Firelord Azulon. By writing her as so afraid of Ozai's wrath that she embraces helplessness, accepts the futility of resisting, an obeys Ozai's command without even the slightest resistance, the comic significantly weakened the character of Zuko's mom.

The answer to, "Where is my mother?" should not have been, "Oh, just a few miles south of the city living happily in a hut, giving zero shits about the fact that you ever existed because she gave up on you."

edited 28th May '17 9:05:41 AM by TobiasDrake

Iroh is influential, but he's not all-powerful especially after his father was taken down by Ozai and Ursa. When Ozai became Firelord he would be at the mercy of his rule along with Ursa. This meant he couldn't really prevent everything that his brother would inflict on his wife. I have a good feeling if Iroh ever interfered, that he would be cut down like many others who have gotten in his way.

Also it's downplaying how much abuse Ozai inflicted on Ursa, ever since she married the guy he has microcontrolled everything she does and basically threatens her with the knowledge that her childhood love would die if she made a wrong turn. Her decision to gain a new identity was shown in-universe as being morally questionable, but when you realize the context around everything then you realize how much crud she put up with for years. Even worse, is the fact that Ozai made it practically impossible for her to really do anything to help her children be free of her ex's abuse.

Which puts us right back at, "She gave up 'cause it was hard."

Like, I get that it was hard. It was really, really hard. Continuing to push back against Ozai would have been extremely dangerous and really, really, really hard. There's a thousand reasons for why it would be hard. It's really super hard.

Doesn't justify giving up. You know what else was hard? Dethroning Ozai, ending the Hundred-Year War, and liberating the Earth Kingdom. And yet a handful of teenagers managed to pull it off, because they didn't let, "It's really hard," be an excuse to give up and run away. And none of them had children whose very future was at stake.

edited 28th May '17 2:49:01 PM by TobiasDrake

It's easy not to be in a position where one can say that. But when you actually are in it, then it can possibly be even dangerous for you. You said he was content to leave her alone, but then you forget it's only because he has the threat of killing their children if she fell out of line.

That threat is exactly the reason why continuing to undermine and oppose him is critical. Zuko and Azula are perpetual hostages. The correct thing to take away from that is not, "Ozai will be a kind and loving father and will never do anything to harm them as long as his conditions are met."

First he was going to kill Zuko because Azulon told him to, then he was going to kill Zuko if Ursa didn't leave. What's he going to kill Zuko for tomorrow? That's something a parent has to think about. He obviously has no hesitance about abusing and outright killing Zuko at the slightest provocation.

Zuko is not safe in Ozai's custody. He is in constant danger. That he will suffer and die under Ozai is an absolute certainty. That Ursa shrugged her shoulders and just left him in that situation is terrible parenting. Abandoning him because of the threat delivered to Ursa is willfully ignoring the threat posed to his wellbeing every single day Zuko continues to be exposed to Ozai.

How about the fact that even though she is a skilled poison maker, she still is a average citizen with little to no combat skills. Also as said since Ozai wouldn't cut corners in preventing her from entering back into their children's lives, I would think he would also be wise to her poison techniques.

People forget she knew he wasn't a kind father for being so petty to disown him personally as a son, since she wished he wasn't. People forget sometimes the abuser has all the cards in their hands, and it kind of feels like victim blaming when people say they should have tried harder.

He was also going to kill the kids if she decided to come back, so she didn't really have that option. In fact, Ozai had all the cards and she practically had almost none.

edited 28th May '17 3:07:10 PM by firewriter

Again, there were more options than just sneaking in again and poisoning Ozai. A jar of poison is not the only person in the world opposed to Ozai's reign. I mean, in the five years after losing his son, Iroh somehow managed to become a member of the White Lotus Society and played a pivotal role in Ozai's downfall despite probably not being able to take him in a fight.

One could even argue that a major part of that role was what Ursa should have been doing.

This is not a binary choice between "Singlehandedly slay Ozai" and "Run away forever, contributing nothing to the war effort".

edited 28th May '17 3:09:17 PM by TobiasDrake

I can't really go into depth right now, but I will say that Tobias' viewpoint is basically what I was describing when I first addressed the issue and continues to come off as intentionally oversimplyfying a situation that was never designed to make Ursa come off as perfect in the first place. I may elaborate when my situation is better.

edited 28th May '17 3:24:30 PM by LSBK