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* AuthorsSavingThrow:
** Despite all the issues listed below, the episode does at least address one fan complaint by explaining the absence of Edd and anyone else who would have objected to the mutiny: it was done very late at night while they were asleep. And Ghost was shown being able to sense his owner's demise, but remained powerless to do anything because he was caged up. Much like his brother Grey Wind.
** Many fans were also exasperated at the end of last season by the writers' explanation that Daenerys dropped her ring to use as a breadcrumb for someone to find her, since the idea of someone just ''happening'' to stumble onto it seemed ridiculous but was clearly going to happen. This episode, though, makes it very obvious that the area where Dany was standing was surrounded by horses/riders, making the place she was standing a more obvious spot to look. It's still a lucky find by Jorah, but not nearly as much of a stretch as one might have guessed at the end of last season. However, it still doesn't really explain how they found that particular hill in hundreds of square miles of territory: they randomly find one of Drogon's kills and remark that they're "on the right trail." What trail? Dragons ''fly'', guys.
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* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: In the show-runners' reflection on the Dorne storyline, they felt that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were meant to come off as the sympathetic party, justified in their argument that Doran was out of touch with his people and a boot-licker for wanting to TurnTheOtherCheek. Unfortunately, their RevengeByProxy on Myrcella and murdering Trystane out of spite cemented them as unpopular. Doran coming off as [[OnlySaneMan the one rational man in Dorne]] did not help matters either.
* WhatAnIdiot:
** Turns out yes, Jaime really was stupid enough to not just turn the boat around while he was barely out of the harbor, and instead goes all the way back to King's Landing... where he starts talking about how he can't wait to get some revenge.
** Trystane does not behave pragmatically at all when confronted by the Sand Snakes. In particular, side-stepping so that he would be standing directly in front of one of them, back turned to her, left him extremely vulnerable for attack.
** Ser Alliser Thorne states that his reasons for betraying Jon Snow was that he let the wildlings through the Wall. Which begs the question why Thorne himself chose to open the gate for all those wildlings ''then'' stab the only man those wildlings will listen to? Viewers hoping for an AuthorsSavingThrow (such as fears of Bolton reprisals for Jon aiding the now-defeated Stannis), were left scratching their heads at the depths of his stupidity. It doesn't help that his justification boils down to a SlipperySlopeFallacy[[note]]Stating that Jon letting the wildlings through the Wall will inevitably lead to the downfall of the Night's Watch.[[/note]], and that despite his xenophobic motive Thorne doesn't even consider the possibility the wildlings might attack Castle Black in retaliation for Jon's murder (especially if Jon was as pro-wildling as Thorne claims).
** In addition to giving traitors unrestricted access to his defenseless person, Doran doesn't improve his chances of surviving by reading aloud the message exposing Ellaria's new treason ''right in front of her''. It's a shock for sure and there is not much room for maneuvering, but the bad hand could have been played better, given Jaime warns Doran about her [[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-note-plot-hole_us_57211895e4b0b49df6a9ff65?section=india explicitly]].
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* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: In the show-runners' reflection on the Dorne storyline, they felt that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were meant to come off as the sympathetic party, justified in their argument that Doran was out of touch with his people and a boot-licker for wanting to TurnTheOtherCheek. Unfortunately, their RevengeByProxy on Myrcella and murdering Trystane out of spite cemented them as unpopular. Doran coming off as [[OnlySaneMan the one rational man in Dorne]] did not help matters either.
* WhatAnIdiot:
** Turns out yes, Jaime really was stupid enough to not just turn the boat around while he was barely out of the harbor, and instead goes all the way back to King's Landing... where he starts talking about how he can't wait to get some revenge.
** Trystane does not behave pragmatically at all when confronted by the Sand Snakes. In particular, side-stepping so that he would be standing directly in front of one of them, back turned to her, left him extremely vulnerable for attack.
** Ser Alliser Thorne states that his reasons for betraying Jon Snow was that he let the wildlings through the Wall. Which begs the question why Thorne himself chose to open the gate for all those wildlings ''then'' stab the only man those wildlings will listen to? Viewers hoping for an AuthorsSavingThrow (such as fears of Bolton reprisals for Jon aiding the now-defeated Stannis), were left scratching their heads at the depths of his stupidity. It doesn't help that his justification boils down to a SlipperySlopeFallacy[[note]]Stating that Jon letting the wildlings through the Wall will inevitably lead to the downfall of the Night's Watch.[[/note]], and that despite his xenophobic motive Thorne doesn't even consider the possibility the wildlings might attack Castle Black in retaliation for Jon's murder (especially if Jon was as pro-wildling as Thorne claims).
** In addition to giving traitors unrestricted access to his defenseless person, Doran doesn't improve his chances of surviving by reading aloud the message exposing Ellaria's new treason ''right in front of her''. It's a shock for sure and there is not much room for maneuvering, but the bad hand could have been played better, given Jaime warns Doran about her [[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-note-plot-hole_us_57211895e4b0b49df6a9ff65?section=india explicitly]].
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either.
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One seems like not an example and the other is little context
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Woobie entries require forum approval


* JerkassWoobie:
** Ramsay gets ''so'' close when he retells the story of how him and Myranda fell in love as childhood sweethearts. But after all it's still one terrible person mourning another terrible person, not to mention his plans to "utilize" her body.
** With the death of her second child and her inability to fight fate (not to mention the traumatizing ordeal of the previous season), Cersei played this straight.
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Added DiffLines:

** Was Ramsey choosing to feed Myranda's corpse to the hounds truly averting DueToTheDead or, in his own twisted way, does he truly believe feeding the hounds that they both loved would be the way to honor her, in the way she would have wished. They are both twisted creatures.
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Groups can't be The Scrappy


* UnintentionallySympathetic / UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: In the show-runners' reflection on the Dorne storyline, they felt that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were meant to come off as the sympathetic party, justified in their argument that Doran was out of touch with his people and a boot-licker for wanting to TurnTheOtherCheek. Unfortunately, their RevengeByProxy on Myrcella and murdering Trystane out of spite cemented them as [[TheScrappy Scrappies]]. Doran coming off as [[OnlySaneMan the one rational man in Dorne]] did not help matters either.

to:

* UnintentionallySympathetic / UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: In the show-runners' reflection on the Dorne storyline, they felt that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were meant to come off as the sympathetic party, justified in their argument that Doran was out of touch with his people and a boot-licker for wanting to TurnTheOtherCheek. Unfortunately, their RevengeByProxy on Myrcella and murdering Trystane out of spite cemented them as [[TheScrappy Scrappies]].unpopular. Doran coming off as [[OnlySaneMan the one rational man in Dorne]] did not help matters either.
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None


* TakeThatScrappy: Roose's TheReasonYouSuckSpeech to Ramsay, particularly when he calls out his victory against Stannis's forces (one of the biggest contributing factors to Ramsay's Villain Sue status) as an easy win. And that without Sansa his position as Roose's heir, and their hold on the North, are in dire straits. Roose also calls Ramsay out for "[[{{RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil}} playing]][[{{ColdBloodedTorture}} games]]" with Sansa and Theon, as they ''were'' actually valuable prisoners as members/heirs of House Stark and Greyjoy respectively and Ramsay's treatment of them meant it was only a matter of time until they were driven to do something drastic.

to:

* TakeThatScrappy: Roose's TheReasonYouSuckSpeech to Ramsay, particularly when he calls out his victory against Stannis's forces (one of the biggest contributing factors to Ramsay's Villain Sue status) as an easy win. And that without Sansa his position as Roose's heir, and their hold on the North, are in dire straits. Roose also calls Ramsay out for "[[{{RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil}} playing]][[{{ColdBloodedTorture}} playing]] [[{{ColdBloodedTorture}} games]]" with Sansa and Theon, as they ''were'' actually valuable prisoners as members/heirs of House Stark and Greyjoy respectively and Ramsay's treatment of them meant it was only a matter of time until they were driven to do something drastic.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* TakeThatScrappy: Roose's TheReasonYouSuckSpeech to Ramsay, particularly when he calls out his victory against Stannis's forces (one of the biggest contributing factors to Ramsay's Villain Sue status) as an easy win. And that without Sansa his position as Roose's heir, and their hold on the North, are in dire straits.

to:

* TakeThatScrappy: Roose's TheReasonYouSuckSpeech to Ramsay, particularly when he calls out his victory against Stannis's forces (one of the biggest contributing factors to Ramsay's Villain Sue status) as an easy win. And that without Sansa his position as Roose's heir, and their hold on the North, are in dire straits. Roose also calls Ramsay out for "[[{{RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil}} playing]][[{{ColdBloodedTorture}} games]]" with Sansa and Theon, as they ''were'' actually valuable prisoners as members/heirs of House Stark and Greyjoy respectively and Ramsay's treatment of them meant it was only a matter of time until they were driven to do something drastic.
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None


* FridgeHorror: Melisandre has seduced countless men to serve her magic, all while being a saggy old crone in disguise. Aside from the fact that this is squicky by itself (not that there's anything morally wrong with seniors being sexually active...), her glamour very likely messed with her targets' heads further than just by making her more physically appealing, actually crossing the line to 'rape by deception'.

to:

* FridgeHorror: Melisandre has seduced countless men to serve her magic, all while being a saggy old crone in disguise. Aside from the fact that this is squicky by itself (not ([[NotThatTheresAnythingWrongWithThat not that there's anything morally wrong with with]] seniors being sexually active...), her glamour very likely messed with her targets' heads further than just by making her more physically appealing, actually crossing the line to 'rape by deception'.

Added: 397

Changed: 1583

Removed: 387

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Example Indentation, "wildlings" like "barbarians" shouldn't be capitalized, and the theory wasn't that Stannis wouldn't be around to punish the mutineers, it was that they feared Boltons reprisals on the Watch because Jon aided Stannis.


* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Was Jaime's decision to return to King's Landing instead of turning around to confront Doran about Ellaria really lacking any form of common sense, or was he simply smart enough to realize returning to Dorne seeking vengeance with only Bronn to fight by his side would end horribly since the Dornish soldiers clearly outnumber them?
** Unfortunately, a [[http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne photo]] of the letter Doran receives supports a lack of common sense since it clearly states Jaime does ''not'' suspect Doran and is sending Trystane straight back while expecting Doran to execute Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, all of which could have been achieved much faster by turning the ship around.

to:

* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: AlternativeCharacterInterpretation:
**
Was Jaime's decision to return to King's Landing instead of turning around to confront Doran about Ellaria really lacking any form of common sense, or was he simply smart enough to realize returning to Dorne seeking vengeance with only Bronn to fight by his side would end horribly since the Dornish soldiers clearly outnumber them?
** *** Unfortunately, a [[http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne photo]] of the letter Doran receives supports a lack of common sense since it clearly states Jaime does ''not'' suspect Doran and is sending Trystane straight back while expecting Doran to execute Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, all of which could have been achieved much faster by turning the ship around.



** Many fans were also exasperated at the end of last season by the writers' explanation that Daenerys dropped her ring to use as a breadcrumb for someone to find her, since the idea of someone just ''happening'' to stumble onto it seemed ridiculous but was clearly going to happen. This episode, though, makes it very obvious that the area where Dany was standing was surrounded by horses/riders, making the place she was standing a more obvious spot to look. It's still a lucky find by Jorah, but not nearly as much of a stretch as one might have guessed at the end of last season.
* BileFascination: Some of the showviewers and online commenters who had been alerted to the latest twists in the Dornish subplot watched the episode solely to see if things were actually going to be as bad as it seemed.

to:

** Many fans were also exasperated at the end of last season by the writers' explanation that Daenerys dropped her ring to use as a breadcrumb for someone to find her, since the idea of someone just ''happening'' to stumble onto it seemed ridiculous but was clearly going to happen. This episode, though, makes it very obvious that the area where Dany was standing was surrounded by horses/riders, making the place she was standing a more obvious spot to look. It's still a lucky find by Jorah, but not nearly as much of a stretch as one might have guessed at the end of last season.
season. However, it still doesn't really explain how they found that particular hill in hundreds of square miles of territory: they randomly find one of Drogon's kills and remark that they're "on the right trail." What trail? Dragons ''fly'', guys.
* BileFascination: Some of the showviewers viewers and online commenters who had been alerted to the latest twists in the Dornish subplot watched the episode solely to see if things were actually going to be as bad as it seemed. seemed.



* UnintentionallySympathetic / UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: In the Showrunners' reflection on the Dorne storyline, they felt that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were meant to come off as the sympathetic party, justified in their argument that Doran was out of touch with his people and a boot-licker for wanting to TurnTheOtherCheek. Unfortunately, their RevengeByProxy on Myrcella and murdering Trystane out of spite cemented them as [[TheScrappy Scrappies]]. Doran coming off as [[OnlySaneMan the one rational man in Dorne]] did not help matters either.

to:

* UnintentionallySympathetic / UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: In the Showrunners' show-runners' reflection on the Dorne storyline, they felt that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were meant to come off as the sympathetic party, justified in their argument that Doran was out of touch with his people and a boot-licker for wanting to TurnTheOtherCheek. Unfortunately, their RevengeByProxy on Myrcella and murdering Trystane out of spite cemented them as [[TheScrappy Scrappies]]. Doran coming off as [[OnlySaneMan the one rational man in Dorne]] did not help matters either.



** Ser Alliser Thorne states that his reasons for betraying Jon Snow was that he left the Wildlings through the Wall. Which begs the question, if his plan was to betray Jon Snow why did he let him and all those Wildlings through the Gate, and ''then'' stab the only man the Wildlings will listen to? Viewers hoping for an AuthorsSavingThrow (such as news of Stannis' defeat forcing his hand), were left scratching their heads at the depths of his stupidity. It doesn't help that his justification boils down to a SlipperySlopeFallacy.[[note]]Stating that since Jon let the Wildlings through the wall, this will all ultimately lead to the downfall of the Night's Watch.[[/note]]
*** This is the ''justification'' for killing Jon Snow, that he uses to excuse his actions. He's hardly going to say, "I did this because I knew Stannis wasn't around to cut my head off afterwards."
** To compound Ser Alliser's stupidity even further, promotional videos have clearly shown Wun Wun and the Wildlings attacking Castle Black, most likely in retaliation for Jon Snow's death.

to:

** Ser Alliser Thorne states that his reasons for betraying Jon Snow was that he left let the Wildlings wildlings through the Wall. Which begs the question, if his plan was to betray Jon Snow question why did he let him and Thorne himself chose to open the gate for all those Wildlings through the Gate, and wildlings ''then'' stab the only man the Wildlings those wildlings will listen to? Viewers hoping for an AuthorsSavingThrow (such as news fears of Stannis' defeat forcing his hand), Bolton reprisals for Jon aiding the now-defeated Stannis), were left scratching their heads at the depths of his stupidity. It doesn't help that his justification boils down to a SlipperySlopeFallacy.[[note]]Stating SlipperySlopeFallacy[[note]]Stating that since Jon let letting the Wildlings wildlings through the wall, this Wall will all ultimately inevitably lead to the downfall of the Night's Watch.[[/note]]
*** This is the ''justification'' for killing Jon Snow,
[[/note]], and that he uses to excuse despite his actions. He's hardly going to say, "I did this because I knew Stannis wasn't around to cut my head off afterwards."
** To compound Ser Alliser's stupidity
xenophobic motive Thorne doesn't even further, promotional videos have clearly shown Wun Wun and consider the Wildlings attacking possibility the wildlings might attack Castle Black, most likely Black in retaliation for Jon's murder (especially if Jon Snow's death.was as pro-wildling as Thorne claims).
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None

Added DiffLines:

** While a minor point, it's easy to interpret Moro as sincerely believing that seeing a beautiful woman naked for the first time is better than all the things his blood riders listed off, but conceded the point because liking sex more than killing would be socially unacceptable for Dothraki.
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* TakeThatScrappy: Roose's ReasonYouSuckSpeech to Ramsay, particularly when he calls out his victory against Stannis's forces (one of the biggest contributing factors to Ramsay's VillainSue status) as an easy win. And that without Sansa his position as Roose's heir, and their hold on the North, are in dire straits.

to:

* TakeThatScrappy: Roose's ReasonYouSuckSpeech TheReasonYouSuckSpeech to Ramsay, particularly when he calls out his victory against Stannis's forces (one of the biggest contributing factors to Ramsay's VillainSue Villain Sue status) as an easy win. And that without Sansa his position as Roose's heir, and their hold on the North, are in dire straits.



* UnintentionallySympathetic / UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: In the Showrunners' reflection on the Dorne storyline, they felt that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were meant to come off as the sympathetic party, justified in their argument that Doran was out of touch with his people and a boot-licker for wanting to TurnTheOtherCheek. Unfortunately, their RevengeByProxy on Myrcella and murdering Trystane out of spite cemented them as [[TheScrappy Scrappies.]] Doran coming off as [[OnlySaneMan the one rational man in Dorne]] did not help matters either.

to:

* UnintentionallySympathetic / UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: In the Showrunners' reflection on the Dorne storyline, they felt that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were meant to come off as the sympathetic party, justified in their argument that Doran was out of touch with his people and a boot-licker for wanting to TurnTheOtherCheek. Unfortunately, their RevengeByProxy on Myrcella and murdering Trystane out of spite cemented them as [[TheScrappy Scrappies.]] Scrappies]]. Doran coming off as [[OnlySaneMan the one rational man in Dorne]] did not help matters either.
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None


* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: In a behind the show look, the show runners actually views the Ellaria Sand Snakes as justified in their coup, viewing Doran as a weak leader who lost touch with the desires of his people.

to:

* UnintentionallySympathetic / UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: In a behind the show look, Showrunners' reflection on the show runners actually views the Dorne storyline, they felt that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were meant to come off as the sympathetic party, justified in their coup, viewing argument that Doran as a weak leader who lost was out of touch with his people and a boot-licker for wanting to TurnTheOtherCheek. Unfortunately, their RevengeByProxy on Myrcella and murdering Trystane out of spite cemented them as [[TheScrappy Scrappies.]] Doran coming off as [[OnlySaneMan the desires of his people. one rational man in Dorne]] did not help matters either.

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